Jump to content
zoomer

DTM - Modifiers - drape to Surface required ?

Recommended Posts

Is it mandatory to drape "2D" Geometry of Modifiers on the DTM first ?

 

It has been a while since I created my DTM but see that all Modifiers were draped

on the DTM surface (which I think I wouldn't have done if working without ?)

 

Especially I mean :

 

a) Texture Beds

b) Retaining Edges around (flat) Modifier Patches

 

 

As I see the Modifiers still working ALTHOUGH

some of them meanwhile lost parts of their Z-Position against the DTM

(Maybe from doing modifications like moving or adding points that tend to jump in Z)

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post

It is not mandatory, no.

 

Texture Beds specifically should just project straight down regardless of their height. You CAN use Send to Surface on a Pad with retaining edge to match elevation with OR drape across the top of a site model (you'll get behavior options to pick from when using Send to Surface on one of these modifiers) but you could set the values manually as well in the OIP.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks Jim.

 

1 hour ago, JimW said:

Texture Beds specifically should just project straight down regardless of their height

 

Ok, so no need to drape Texture Beds. As long as they keep their XY Locations that's fine.

Not sure why my Texture Beds were draped.

 

1 hour ago, JimW said:

You CAN use Send to Surface on a Pad with retaining edge to match elevation with OR drape across the top of a site model (you'll get behavior options to pick from when using Send to Surface on one of these modifiers) but you could set the values manually as well in the OIP.

 

So far I had only Modifiers to cut out the Building from the DTM, achieving borders as "vertical"

as possible and not changing the DTM around in any way.

 

In this case it IS mandatory to drape the retaining edge, right ?

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, zoomer said:

In this case it IS mandatory to drape the retaining edge, right ?


If by Drape you mean to align the retaining edge to the surface of the site model, that's your call, it is not mandatory no. Send to Surface (if that's what you mean by draping?) can be used but is not the only option for controlling the retaining edge heights. You can also just manually edit the heights of the edges and vertices without using Send to Surface.

Share this post


Link to post

Ahm, yes, send to surface.

 

I thought retaining edge means a 2D Border, outside of which the DTM Surface

will not be touched or changed in any way by the Modifiers.

So the Modification happens only inside the Modifier Surface and the

transition between Modifier and Retaining Edge.

(So no need for any specific Z values)

 

 

Will have to test and look deeper again.

 

Share this post


Link to post

OK Jim, I think I got it now.

 

Send to surface needed for the 2D Geometry before Modifier+RE generated

to just get a "building voluem cut out" without destroying the DTM borders around.

 

 

What I don't really get is that some of my RE vertices fell down to to modifiers height

but the DTM was not destroyed, the border heigths around stayed so far.

Maybe I should avoid to ever update the DTM :$

Share this post


Link to post

Maybe I am totally wrong.

 

I think what I need

(and thought a Retaining Edge would be)

is a "Grade Limit".

 

Which I have to do manually as an VW Architectural user,

with a copy of the Modifier Geometry, offset by a Nanometer.

But at least I can..

 

 

But using a Grade Limit does no more allow to to height corrections like with

the Retaining Edge, in case I would ever need later ?

 

 

I think I have to reset my brain and start from scratch with the help files .....

 

 

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post

Hey @zoomeryour might want to check out this thread. I find texture beds tricky and you have to follow (at least in my experience) a given procedure for them to work.
Your right that the grading limits are critical but give you lots of choice how the pad and existing terrain interface.
Hope this is helpful.

 

Share this post


Link to post

I got my texture beds working so far without problems.

Good that VW ignores their Z value and just projects them in Top Plan XY,

as generally things loose Z values when modifying 3D Polys.

 

A problem for me in general that Modifiers must not touch each other.

A lot of extra work if you want to project a street and pedestrian with different

textures. As offsetting parallel may fail depending on your sources.

And if your DTM Mesh is bad, it will get even worse by further texture bed cutting.

(In case you ever want to edit it later in something like C4D)

 

1.

And of course texture beds are flat on the ground.

How do you streets/pedestrian, that should be nearly level sideways, in a hilly terrain ?

Street Tools ?

 

2.

Polygonal (trendy) walkways, sometimes sloped.

Texture beds ?

 

 

Currently I ignore existing vs proposed.

I modulate the terrain by editing existing source geometry, means pulling the 3D Polylines.

My "hardscapes" are modeled conventionally 3D, and I adapt the terrain to get proper heights

to not occlude them.

Currently I have no confidence that I could control all this by Modifiers.

 

 

3.

How to do Versions ?

(beside snapshots)

 

Like 2 Buildings on site. I modeled the terrain with building 1 cut out and some modifications

for building one. Meanwhile B1is irrelevant, they start with B2 and the B1 Terrain should be

back to existing terrain.

But I don't want to loose its Modifications in case I need it later again.

 

Would it help to move my Modifiers to another Layer - to temporarily deactivate these ?

Share this post


Link to post

That is how things look for better understanding.

 

FAB2018_2017-09-07_14_30_16.jpg.006c650719bbd1bf22899038f532012b.jpg

 

Generally the Terrain is slightly sloping parallel to the street.

The typical Polygonal walkways that change now and then.

Hard to see but there are some heavier slopes done by the LA when he lowers terrain to Story Floor Levels,

like where the 2 "retaining" Walls were needed or like behind that stair.

So sometimes a much higher LOD than the overall DTM (is wished to have) needed in some areas.

 

 

FAB2018_2017-09-07_14_47_36.jpg.69fcf80c1a9eda7bffd527815e4bc67f.jpg

 

On the left, rests of Building 1 that should go but for this version not be lost.

There is even a fake surface over the B1 cut out.

Share this post


Link to post

So what I normally need for my Architecture is just :

 

1. a)

Simple Cut Outs for Buildings,

just so that there is no terrain in my lower Stories Interiors, Terrain untouched.

(Pad + additional Grade Limits ? or Solid Subtractions ?)

 

1. b)

Cut Outs for Buildings,

maybe some slight height changes where the terrain touches the Building

(Pad with Retaining Edge sent to surface ?)

 

 

2.

Streets with Pedestrian Ways,

visible height level differences or curbs recognizable.

(Street Tools needed ?)

 

 

3.

Some proposed level or slightly sloped Areas,

for Parking Lots, Walk Ways, "Hardscapes" or Furniture,

that blend back into existing terrain over a controllable distance in a nice "tangential" manner.

And these have to be edited easily when changes occur.

Share this post


Link to post
55 minutes ago, zoomer said:

So what I normally need for my Architecture is just :

 

1. a)

Simple Cut Outs for Buildings,

just so that there is no terrain in my lower Stories Interiors, Terrain untouched.

(Pad + additional Grade Limits ? or Solid Subtractions ?)

Yes that's what I do. If you create a pad you can offset this(duplicate) 1mm or so to make it a tight cut. Haven't needed to use solid subtraction

55 minutes ago, zoomer said:

1. b)

Cut Outs for Buildings,

maybe some slight height changes where the terrain touches the Building

(Pad with Retaining Edge sent to surface ?)

I don't use the retaining edge very much as I'm usually placing a retaining wall if needed

55 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

2.

Streets with Pedestrian Ways,

visible height level differences or curbs recognizable.

(Street Tools needed ?)

This is were it can get tricky matching up different pads that intersect. Hopefully an improvement coming with this one day. I often have to use 3d polygons to hide or mask imperfect pad intersections

55 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

3.

Some proposed level or slightly sloped Areas,

for Parking Lots, Walk Ways, "Hardscapes" or Furniture,

that blend back into existing terrain over a controllable distance in a nice "tangential" manner.

And these have to be edited easily when changes occur.

You can just place slope on your pad, this is one big improvement that has been made over the past few years.

Good luck with this @zoomer

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks a lot J. Wallace !

That gives some confidence that I am partly on the right way.

 

1. b)

We poor Architects unfortunately do not have access to retaining Walls.

But as with Grade Limits, these can be done manually to give a similar result.

 

2.

Ok I have to play with this for each case.
If I can control things with Street Tools, Sloped Patches or Texture Beds.

Or even use Modifiers to pull the DTM out of the Way for additional 3D Custom Geometry

 

3.

I am a bit skeptical for these polygonal walkways with different Slope Directions.

So far I adjusted their top vertices heights separately to fit them to the Terrain and together.

Means I create non-planar faces from these quad-shapes.

And I need to change them in their Top View from time to time with revisions.

Have to try.

 

 

 

But what do you do with larger, (nearly) flat, Areas that stamp in or elevate against the terrain.

Like for example in front of the Buildings Entry Story Level vs the Parking Lots on Street Level.

 

How do you deal with the Terrain Transitions in between.

As you don't want an artificial Ramp in between but a natural Slope Gradient,

starting end ending in a "tangential" way from your Pads slopes.

 

Do you always manually add 3D Points/Polylines to control that flow or are there any

other, more parametric options ?

Share this post


Link to post

Are texture beds available in the VW architect package?  I was looking for them and couldn't locate. 

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, they must be there, as I used them in the past.

 

Maybe hidden in your Workspace because you migrated ?

Nearly impossible (?)

 

If you have Modifiers, the fifth "U" option mode should be a green patch icon = Texture Bed

I am pretty sure that these existed already in VW 2016 (?)

 

I normally go to these by AEC > "create objects from shapes" > Modifier and select it from dropdown.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post

I find that I can drape a texture bed modifier on a DTM but little else.  I have difficulties rendering or showing anything with them applied. 

 

J. Wallace, your instructions for how to use them seem very Landmark Based. (which is not a bad thing)  I'm not sure the landscape area settings are available within the VW Architect package. 

 

Zoomer, I like your model, and wish I could figure out how to do what you have done in VW.  There should be an ability to do this within the Architect package tool sets. 

 

Dividing up the site and building so thoroughly seems a little silly, but that's marketing, I suppose.  At least where I live, all of our sites are steeply graded, and it is really hard to apply roads and sidewalks to complex digital terrains within VW Architect. 

 

 

 

Edited by cberg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, cberg said:

J. Wallace, your instructions for how to use them seem very Landmark Based

 

That is cool as LA's know how to use these tools in production.

Yes, our Texture Bed Settings are quite reduced.

But in Data Records, not in Geometry.

 

1 hour ago, cberg said:

I have difficulties rendering or showing anything with them applied

 

Yes I remember having difficulties at the beginning to make them work.

Not sure if it needed to update the DTM which I always forget or to apply them to the correct

Classes for Material Assignment or if manual Assignment was mandatory,

but even I was able to fiddle it.

 

2 hours ago, cberg said:

Zoomer, I like your model, and wish I could figure out how to do what you have done in VW.

 

Ha, thanks.

But it is not true :)

I did an initial DTM in VW from much too overcomplicated source data 3D Polylines.

I was unsuccessful in reducing by "simplify Polys".

I used that DTM just as a template to drape a proper useful Quad Mesh in Modo over

and started topology cleaning and some refinements there.

I mean I pulled on each vertex one by one.

All later design changes that came were again edited over in C4D.

 

So the Model is now so worn and tessellated that each further change gets more and more tedious. 

 


That is exactly why I have the ambition to find any possible way to control all DTM and gardening work

from one single App - VW in the ideal case.

But in a way that it meets some quality standards in form and smoothness and is of some use in

my 3D Render Apps.

 

 

Meanwhile I have an alternative smaller DTM in VW now, that I used for VW Screenshots only.

That means that I have drawn the lower res 3D Polylines by hand (!) from scratch over the former DTM

contour output. In a way where I more tried to please the underlaying VW meshing algorithm instead

of designing topology.

Also every modelling adaption and refinement was simply done (blindly) by manipulating and

refining that new resource data - and watching the results later after a DTM refresh for each iteration.

So The only Modifiers I used so far are the Texture Beds for street/pedestrian/green and

the cut outs for Buildings :)

 

So no real reason for any jealousy on my VW gardening skills here :$

Share this post


Link to post

I came a bit near now.

 

What I would need would be the Texture Beds.

So I would have my green as islands and could selectively apply grass shaders,

Without grass growing through my overlaying "hardscapes" and without further

tessellating my Mesh for texture reasons only.

 

But as these being Modifiers, there would not be any possibility for additional

topology forming Modifiers.

So I would need to modulate my Mesh by editing DTM source data instead again ?

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, zoomer said:

3.

How to do Versions ?

(beside snapshots)

 

Like 2 Buildings on site. I modeled the terrain with building 1 cut out and some modifications

for building one. Meanwhile B1is irrelevant, they start with B2 and the B1 Terrain should be

back to existing terrain.

But I don't want to loose its Modifications in case I need it later again.

 

Would it help to move my Modifiers to another Layer - to temporarily deactivate these ?

 

@zoomer If you prefer not to use snapshots and the exist/proposed features of the DTM, or for some reason they do not work as needed, here is a workaround, or at least a direction

 

A drawing can have multiple site models. 2 Site models from same data can be cropped to show different parts of the site, eg to appear adjacent and continuous. Note: A crop object has to be a closed poly perimeter. Notches & curved edges OK, but interior holes not allowed (well, your crop can have holes in it, but the DTM does not show the holes.

 

Duplicate in Place your site model and crop them to make two adjacent site models (DTMs)

 

•Building 1 DTM crop surrounds only Building 1 area and a little surface around it. This should be configured with the early or existing status around Building1.

Send Building1 DTM to a new Layer so you can control visibility.

 

• The other DTM, MasterDTM includes the whole site, but is cropped to show everything except area of Building1 DTM

Master DTM contains ALL the mods and updates to the WHOLE site, including areas outside the crop. You may have to temporarily eliminate the Master crop when you work on areas outside the crop.

 

When Building 1 becomes relevant again, Hide or delete the Building1 Layer (and therefore the Building1 DTM). Eliminate the crop in MasterDTM to show the entire site with all the mods. Reference in your buildings.

 

Or, similarly, if adjacent crops can’t work and you absolutely have to have a hole, use a solid subtraction to cut the hole in Master DTM, same shape as crop for Building1 DTM. Obviously, working inside the Solid Subtraction is not practical. Suggest work as needed on DTM, then each time a presentation is needed implement the Solid Subtraction. Show/Hide Building1 DTM as needed.

 

Consider using the exist/proposed features on the Building1 DTM. That way it can preserve the mods you already made, and display as needed for sheets & presentations as the project progresses.

-B

Edited by Benson Shaw
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks Benson,

that is very interesting.

 

I will need some time to understand everything.

 

Interesting also your hole theory.

I always wanted a larger low res environment around, that stays fixed,

with a higher res DTM inside for the property area where changes always happen.

I forgot the solid operations and your ideas about 2 DTM per file.

 

The reason why I don't like snapshots is that these are dead geometry.

Just that I need to hide some Buildings DTM modifications temporarily doesn't necessarily

mean that there could not be a need for newer modifications that are valid for the whole

or both models later.

 

And yes, the 2 Buildings are touching and have currently one large cutout. (+ my temporary Dummy Cap)

I think, with needed Offsets for retaining edges or grade limits, it would not be possible to do

2 separate cutouts in 1 DTM.

(Well you would not see it in Renderings)

 

So if I work on a retaining edge height levels, I would like to keep that data.

But I think I could extract the 3D Polyline in a Backup Class and delete the Modifier until again needed ?

 

Share this post


Link to post

Benson you are a genius.

 

The Existing vs Proposed features ARE already 2 possible states for versions !

Forget about that.

As I did not make use of it so far "proposed" is still available.

I may just still suffer from the Modifiers-must-not-overlap-Law in detail (?)

Share this post


Link to post

I think I should go to bed now and watch a bunch of Tamsin Slatter Videos again

to get a clearer mind about VW DTM. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, zoomer said:

That means that I have drawn the lower res 3D Polylines by hand (!) from scratch over the former DTM

Another way instead of tracing contours is Duplicate Along Path. A 3D locus on each contour. Pick optimal spacing or point count for your needs. Class or color each group. Create DTM from the groups. 

 

-B

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, zoomer said:

genius.

If Only. I'm just patient and tolerant toward vwx strangeness.  But I'm totally putting that in my resume!

 

Although Tamsin Slatter videos are great , I'm wanting something more escapist after a hard day of DTM wrangling. SciFi?

 

-B

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, zoomer said:

And yes, the 2 Buildings are touching and have currently one large cutout. (+ my temporary Dummy Cap)

I think, with needed Offsets for retaining edges or grade limits, it would not be possible to do

2 separate cutouts in 1 DTM.

Multiple grade limits or retaining edges or other site mods can be surrounded by a larger grade limit. This can compensate for gaps between the smaller ones. Also pads can share an edge, maybe graders, too? A warning generates, but the dim updates as expected. I think Tamsin talks about that in a video about roads. Or in an old post here. Sorry, can't find now.

 

-B

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×