Zeno

7 and more hour render

39 posts in this topic

Hello everyone, i am fairly new here..

 

I would like to ask you an opinion on the duration of rendering. This is the second work i render with VW (before i already use Artlantis)

 

These viewport Is 35 cm wide and 21 in height, the sheet layer is set on 200 DPI. The CPU i7 4790 3.60 Ghz. At the moment the machine is working from 7 hours and more..

 

I'm a bit worried because I have another 6 viewport ready :-)

 

Someone have an idea about the long duration of rendering?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

LongRender.JPG

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What are the settings used in your current renderworks style? There are many elements of a rendering that can be disabled, tweaked or reduced to speed up renderings without sacrificing quality, but each case is different.

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Thank you. I can post the setting file, but is in italian.. Is it the same? :-)

 

 

RS1.JPG

RS2.JPG

RS3.JPG

RS4.JPG

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UI is close enough that I can still help ;)

On the Quality tab, the large majority of the time you can avoid ever picking Very High (Molto Alta?) for anything. High is often fine.

Leave Curved Geometry set to High, I almost always leave this set this way unless my model has no curves at all.

Anti-Aliasing can usually be dropped to High or Medium. I only drop it to Low for test renderings.

Indirect Lighting - So; the quality you have set is High, but you ALSO have ambient lighting and Ambient Occlusion enabled. Ambient Light/occlusion are sort of a method to "fake" indirect lighting for the sake of speed. I suggest as a test you disable ambient lighting and occlusion and just render with indirect lighting to see if you like the look. Then, a second test, disable indirect lighting and enable ambient lighting/occlusion to judge that as well. It is very rare that you would need to use both, and ambient light/occlusion is MUCH faster than indirect lighting.

Soft Shadows - I have not tested the speed of this too much, generally I leave this as medium or high. I do not THINK it impacts overall render speed that much on its own.

Blurriness is VERY time consuming as a rendering option. Medium or High again are the only two I use, but I also only use Blur in my textures where it is really needed. But you can test whether it's impacting your render speed badly by simply unchecking it from the first "Options" tab, so the render will be completed with no Blur. Blur mixed with Indirect Lighting will also compound how long the overall render takes as these two features interact.

Environment Lighting in this scene in particular could probably be set to Low or Medium merely because the majority of the light in your scene is from Light objects placed around the interior of the room. The only place Environment Lighting is coming in that I can see in your current scene is on the elft just behind the windows, and if this isn't the main source of light in a scene (as it doesnt seem to be here) you can drop this quality to a lower value.

Displacement Mapping - I dont see any displacement mapped textures in your scene, but you have this set to Low so most likely it isnt impacting things heavily even if you did have displaced textures.

Max Reflections - This can often be dropped to 2 even in photorealistic renders unless you have a LOT of glass right next to each other that you are focusing on close up. Increasing this setting (especially when paired with blurriness of reflected surfaces and indirect lighting) even slightly can dramatically increase render time, on the order of making a 4 hour render with 2 reflections an 8 hour render with 3 reflections.

A lot of feedback, but Rendering is my main area of interest :)

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8 minutes ago, JimW said:

UI is close enough that I can still help ;)

On the Quality tab, the large majority of the time you can avoid ever picking Very High (Molto Alta?) for anything. High is often fine.

Leave Curved Geometry set to High, I almost always leave this set this way unless my model has no curves at all.

Anti-Aliasing can usually be dropped to High or Medium. I only drop it to Low for test renderings.

Indirect Lighting - So; the quality you have set is High, but you ALSO have ambient lighting and Ambient Occlusion enabled. Ambient Light/occlusion are sort of a method to "fake" indirect lighting for the sake of speed. I suggest as a test you disable ambient lighting and occlusion and just render with indirect lighting to see if you like the look. Then, a second test, disable indirect lighting and enable ambient lighting/occlusion to judge that as well. It is very rare that you would need to use both, and ambient light/occlusion is MUCH faster than indirect lighting.

Soft Shadows - I have not tested the speed of this too much, generally I leave this as medium or high. I do not THINK it impacts overall render speed that much on its own.

Blurriness is VERY time consuming as a rendering option. Medium or High again are the only two I use, but I also only use Blur in my textures where it is really needed. But you can test whether it's impacting your render speed badly by simply unchecking it from the first "Options" tab, so the render will be completed with no Blur. Blur mixed with Indirect Lighting will also compound how long the overall render takes as these two features interact.

Environment Lighting in this scene in particular could probably be set to Low or Medium merely because the majority of the light in your scene is from Light objects placed around the interior of the room. The only place Environment Lighting is coming in that I can see in your current scene is on the elft just behind the windows, and if this isn't the main source of light in a scene (as it doesnt seem to be here) you can drop this quality to a lower value.

Displacement Mapping - I dont see any displacement mapped textures in your scene, but you have this set to Low so most likely it isnt impacting things heavily even if you did have displaced textures.

Max Reflections - This can often be dropped to 2 even in photorealistic renders unless you have a LOT of glass right next to each other that you are focusing on close up. Increasing this setting (especially when paired with blurriness of reflected surfaces and indirect lighting) even slightly can dramatically increase render time, on the order of making a 4 hour render with 2 reflections an 8 hour render with 3 reflections.

A lot of feedback, but Rendering is my main area of interest :)

 

I'm very impressed by the accuracy of your answer. Thank you so much.

So i put in practice your advice. i keep you informed.

:-)

 

 

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So.. we passed from 7 hours and 45 minutes to just 15 minute... ahaha.. i believe this way is really better than another! But the quality off course is a little bit lower..

I just need to see the lamp's reflection on the roof and increase the quality (see you the rumor at the bottom?). So need i to activate indirect lighting and deactivate ambient lighting/occlusion, right?

No words!!! Thanks!! You rock!!

2.JPG

RS1.JPG

RS2.JPG

RS3.JPG

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I would say yes, disable ambient light and ambient occlusion, enable indirect lighting but at first just do 3 bounces to get an idea of how it affects the render.

Also, the overall quality can probably be improved by notching up Anti Aliasing one setting.

HOWEVER: To learn what the render settings are doing to affect your render visually, i recommend only changing one thing at a time between test renders (especially now that you have the time reduced reasonably)and saving the results to compare later on.

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Posted (edited)

Alta for AA should be enough. I often try Medium.

AA got much better in recent releases and AA is quite expensive in Render Times.

 

GI is also expensive and interior scenes need more GI time in general opposed

to an exterior with physical sky where much light comes from every side.

Especially when using glowing textures you will need higher settings to avoid

splotches.

Maybe only 4 Bounces may not look too wrong or dark.

I never use Ambient Light when calculating GI. That is old fashioned fake light.

AO fake effect is ok for me, if there are small details that GI will not cover with

faster settings.

 

Blurry Reflexions are expensive.

Displacement is, and and even Bumps can be, expensive.

DOF is a bit expensive.

 

I often turn down reflection amount to 2x as I can hardly see a difference but rays

can bounce nearly endlessly between paralellel glass surfaces if you allow too many

reflections.

(And each times the ray gets devided into a Diffuse + Transluzent and Specular ray again)

 

 

And try to set realistic Brightness/Absorption Values for Materials.

a) when you download a photo texture, that is not the brightness of the material but the "rendered"

end result already with "GI" and camera exposure, so too bright as a material brightness.

b) A white color is never 255/255/255 RGB pure white, as this means it does not absorb any

light. Therefore GI will bounce nearly endlessly between white surfaces which will increase

render time.

(I see you don't use white materials here)

 

A rule of thumb is to set the diffuse colors as you are used but set the typical* brightness multiplier

to only 75-80 % for "absorption".

*unfortunately not available for VW colors but sometimes you can add the "Filter Color" of a 20% grey

or similar.

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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Posted (edited)

37 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Maybe only 4 Bounces may not look too wrong or dark.

 

With only 3 Bounces the scenes becomes to dark, with GI i dont see the reflection on the light.. how can i resolve it? I need both!

 

We passt from 7 hour 45 minute to 15 minute and then 1 hour

 

 

3 boundes.JPG

Edited by zetadierre
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Ahh then you may need the max bounces in this case, you CAN enable Ambient Light and leave it a bit low to control the overall brightness without impacting realism too much, i think around 30-40 % is decent.

(Always keep in mind, no matter what I or anyone else here may suggest in rendering techniques, this is very much an art more than a science and the "right" answer is whatever set of settings looks best to you.)

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2 minutes ago, JimW said:

(Always keep in mind, no matter what I or anyone else here may suggest in rendering techniques, this is very much an art more than a science and the "right" answer is whatever set of settings looks best to you.)

 

Sagge parole dispensi ai discepoli, maestro!

 

Yes, it is a charming world but it need much expensive time. Now i'm tring with this settings.. let's wait and see (it will be a very long night..)

 

 

SSS.JPG

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@JimW- would enabling ISO Film Speed & Shutter Speed under 'Exposure' in the RW Camera Effects increase the rendering time?

That might be another way to 'lighten' the dark interior scene without increasing the number of bounces.

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Just now, rDesign said:

@JimW- would enabling ISO Film Speed & Shutter Speed under 'Exposure' in the RW Camera Effects increase the rendering time?

 


From what I can tell, these effects seem to be applied at the very end of the rendering and do not significantly increase render time, so exposure may indeed do the trick. I have not experimented with this related to render times however, it's on my list.

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Posted (edited)

Setting camera exposure does not need more render time.

It just needs the use of a camera.

Which should be already in use if DOF is used anyway.

 

Edited by zoomer
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But i use the cameras! So i can turn on the indirect light, turn off the ambient light and play with exposure. I think but that the lamps goes to be extra exposed... so no extra time but extra exposed zone i think.

 

I can try for the next step.

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To clarify a bit of the different results:

 

Ambient Light will make EVERYTHING in the scene brighter, which is bad when you have/want darker areas. Exposure should amplify only the light sources that already exist, so it may do a better job visually. i would expect both of these changes to be comparable in rendering time, they aren't severely "expensive."

 

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5 minutes ago, JimW said:

i would expect both of these changes to be comparable in rendering time, they aren't severely "expensive."

 

 

For now, in a half hour it is on a wonderful total white style, apparetly locked, working (i believe) for the preview. I wait not more than 20 minute and i try with the camera without Ambient Light. 

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So: this the summary just for now.

I will try to set all the viewport i need with camera+exposure setting, but with 4 Bounces (actually is 3). I think that 1 hour and a half could be enough.

 

Riassunto.JPG

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Nicely done! Glad you were able to shave so much time off the final render, those hours really start to stack up.

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Ok. I thing it's working. 6 viewport rendered less than 8 hours, just another settings for the light power.

Another "illumination settings": bloom effect. In attachment the same scene, 2 different cameras. The only difference is the bloom effect (7% higher, 2% lower).

 

 

 

OK.JPG

Too low.JPG

to high.JPG

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Nice !

 

I think the last one may need a bit higher AA settings (for the table).

(While high contrast areas, like between lights and darker geometry will always stay problematic)

 

For the wood floor in the last image I would add some blurryness to the reflection despite the

expense in render times. Blurry Reflections add a lot of quality. Wherever they are important

and visible, I would pay the price for them. I just renounce of them where they don't add much

value.

And you could play with using the glass reflection shader instead, which gives some fresnel effect

to reflections which adds some photorealism. Meaning that reflections are much lower when you

look perpendicular to a surface, opposed to looking at a glazing angle.

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2 hours ago, zoomer said:

For the wood floor in the last image I would add some blurryness to the reflection despite the

expense in render times. Blurry Reflections add a lot of quality. Wherever they are important

and visible, I would pay the price for them. I just renounce of them where they don't add much

value.

 

For the moment i stay away from Blurriness :-) I'm just trying others settings: now i set lower illumination to incandescense texture (from 350& to 100%) and high exposure time (1/60 and 100 iso) to have better global illumination without GI setting.

 

The rendering are dark. But i can't spend 7 hour for a render. I just need to find the correct settings between

 

- light power

- time exposure and iso in camera settings

- blur setting on the camera

 

For the indiricect lighting i already have 8 boundes and high quality, not less. But: more boundes means more light? I'm not totally sure i undertand this.

 

I hope that in a cup of hours i will find the final standards, but i feel that more i work without GI, more realistic situation i find. I get lower illumination for example.. so i think that if you want to work with a camera like in the real world, you can work without GI. without GI means less time render, because indirect lightning is necessary in my opionion.

 

 

2 hours ago, zoomer said:

I think the last one may need a bit higher AA settings (for the table).

 

Which one of the settings you mean to set in AA (AA means Molto Alta so very High?)

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Posted (edited)

In reality light bounces nearly endlessly until the last photon got absorbed.

You can't do this by a computer in a reasonable time.

 

So you limit bounces in GI settings.

If you limit to 1 secondary bounce, the first ray will check the first surface

and its brightness by the light in the scene. The secondary will send many rays

in the environment to check if other surfaces, beside absorbing, will reflect

some light and add this to the direct illumination brightness.

Then it is stopps.

If you set 2 secondary bounces, at the point where the first bounce detected

a surface that contributes to lighting, a scond bounce will send rays from that

surface and will check if that surface got any indirect light before and will

again add that little amount of light.

 

Therefore in that simplified computer model, further bounces will add more and

more light to the scene until a point where so much light is absorbed by bouncing

that you won't notice any improvement.

That is mostly visible in areas which are far away from surfaces that get direct light.

 

And as each new bounce again gets devided in many rays, this is not linear and

render time would increase exponentially.

 

 

 

It is just the couvh table and the plant that look like there would be no AA at all.

Edited by zoomer
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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

that you won't notice any improvement.

 

 

I watched the wall bottom and only with 2 or boundes that seems badly than with 8, or for example the roof near the light.. it seems an orange not a wall  :D

 

these effect is fixed with 8 boundes (or.. wait a moment.. could by the better settings on a quality tab? :/ )

 

597a068d20c00_3boundes.JPG.5f106ee7ab34b47b1504616f7388a5f8.JPG

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I would say the amount of bounces has an influence in indirect lightings brightnes

but is mainly used to control balance of GI, between direct lit and shadow areas.

 

Of course scenes with small light sources and large shadow areas are harder

for GI than daylight exterior scenes. And the less direct light or further away

from first bounces, the less quality.

So for interior scenes more bounces are mandatory even for quality reasons.

 

But normally the GI quality setting is what primarily defines quality.

If splotches appear or definition in small details is sufficient.

 

 

In real C4D or Vray you have endless options to set your GI and different

calculation models for first or second bounces with different dis/advantages

And the chances to easily ruin your render times completely in complex

settings.

For example there are Light Map or Light Cache models that can do that nearly

endless bouncing for interiors in a fecent amount of time.

 

In VW you can't set these options directly. But invisible for the user, setting the

amount of indirect bounces switches between these modes and uses an apropriate

option for you.

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