VW2008 Quite unable to take a decision

[blimey]

Like most of us, I read the announcement of VW2008 with much excitement and have been reading the forums with accute interest over the last 2 weeks. Many of the new features sound really great and I'm really tempted. However, having experiment all the upgrades from VW11.5 to VW12, 12.5, 12.5.1 and finally 12.5.2 which is at the end a quite mature stage of VW12, I must admit that I can understand why everyone in the office is quite insisting on setting down for some more "established" and almost "bug free" workflow...

When 2 weeks ago I announced proudly the release of the new version and my interest in upgrading, the whole team had a kind of "don't do that" reaction or "can't we just give it a rest" expression... at least they've sort of clearly expressed their doubts about my idea...

I guess their reaction made me have second thoughts and 10 days later I've still not been able to take a decision... 2 ways worksheet and the ability to modify many plug-ins in on single move, is something we've really been waiting for as well as transparency... yet I can't deny I'm anxious at the idea that those nice features will come at the cost of many others... and many yet unknown bugs...

Anybody would like to share his conclusion about the pros and cons for upgrading?

[quigley]

My rule of thumb with upgrading for anything more than a couple of licenses at a time is to wait for the first 2 or 3 service patches before upgrading. With some software it is even more critical. For example SolidWorks I have a maintenance contract that I pay ?1000 a year for that gives me all upgrades and support. Version 2008 SP0 is now out, but I won't be installing until 2008 SP3 - and interestingly the UK resellers don;t tend to distribute DVDs until at least SP2 unless customers want them.

As you seem to have a large team I'd probably hold back a month or two before upgrading, unless you have a real need to use the new features. Having said that if you use a lot of walls and angled buildings 2008 is a bit of a no brainer with the rotate plan and multiple PIO in wall selection.

Maybe upgrade one or two seats and run them and see how you get on. At least that way when you do upgrade everybody some users can help the transition process.

[blimey]

Thanks quigley. Actually our team is rather small. But we nevers thought about upgrading only 1 or two seats since we work so much closely one with the others... It is a good idea though. I think that your advice to wait a month is also quite reasonable too.

[matto]

New Features always bring tweaks to the workflow, in-house testing or "play" to use to how it works. Not to memtion it's a time to catch up on those cad management tasks that sort of never get time made unless they are part of perparing the upgrade generally.

So upgrading a small core group of users as size premits always seems to work well.

As I understand it the NNA is happy for you to use both on the machines that upgraded.

That way all the older projects can stick to the stable workflow, but you are still investing to in the future as well.

[Guest]

Limei

To little for too much. Some "new" features are really brilliant. But for that upgrade price, a lot more should have been on the block. Especially on the 3D side - a large lag behind the runners.

Rather buy some Add - On's that eliminate some of the shortcomings and you still have a good and reasonable stable VW 12.5.2 version. Or wait for the VW 14.0 version. Maybe they will put in a full house on the 2D and some good 3D features.

My advice is to hold the horses back. Read the forums and think deep and hard. It is human nature to just buy the "major upgrades" of a marketing campaign without looking deeper than the skin. A little wait and maybe it is not seen as such a big deal.

All about spending your hard earned money, they want it, and you want it - but is it really worth that impulsive decision ? Usually afterwards you do not think so - it comes down to a personal decision.

So read and keep up what the other user's say and think. Make the decision on a clear and set mind.

[atari2600]

Our office updated from 12.0 to 12.5.2 in mid-August after living on 12.0 since it came out. It took that amount of time for us to conclude the upgrade was stable enough for our network. A few of us were testing the revisions between 12.0 and 12.5.2, and kept getting corruption errors with files that were being read off the network. It wasn't until the most recent update that we were able to bring all 26 users up to current.

Imagine our surprise to see a NEW version of Vectorworks out about a month after we updated.

It will take a lot more than a sales pitch to persuade us to spend $11,000 on an upgrade anytime soon.

Patience can be a great virtue, especially in the computer world.

[ionw]

Matt,

Maybe I am missing something, but 12.5.2 was a no-cost upgrade right? So why does it sound like you were affected by them releasing VW 2008? The last paid version, 12.0, was released 23 months ago. The free Maintenance upgrade 12.5 was released 12 months ago. I just don't see why you should be bothered by this.

Limei,

I would second anyone here who is suggesting waiting a couple of iterations at least to upgrade the entire office. I may be speaking out of turn, but my guess is the staff at NNA tech support would recommend the same. I always get a single full license of the release software, as soon as it comes out. I am the only one of 17 who uses it, and I make evaluations of how much it will save our staff in time and ease of use. Also I try to find where it breaks our current working environment. After a couple of months I know whether we are going to jump in early or late in the development cycle. I would just say you have to buy the software that does the job you need done, not what is promised in the future.

[Guest]

Correct V12.5 I got with the free bug repair updates with some minor improvements - not free releases.

The problem I have with V13 / 2008 is that it does not deliver that much. There is a concentration and effort in BIM, which is also correct to do. But it should not be the primary target and obsession to gain that certification and leave everyday good and usefull tools to have behind.

As said previously the 2D & 3D needs alot of work. Especially on the 3D side. It feels like VW just did not pass beyond the 2000 year line of 3D advancements.

That is a shame as VW is a great CAD and have so much to offer.

The problem I foresee with BIM and the time spent on it is that AutoCAD representitaves etc will also be on that panel dictating what is what and how is how. And there is always a portion of people that have preferential of certain CAD's over and above others and will push the BIM issue on which way ever possible to suit a particular CAD with the others obviously not goiing down the stream. It is a humanely nature fault and can not be placed out of the ball game - after all CAD is a money game, and big money will push where it wants it to be on one way or another.

In the end we maybe will have different versions of a BIM as foreseen by 2 or more CAD platforms and each claiming their's is the true one - What then ? VW wasted 5 - 10 years on a BIM model and by then all the most important design features is also lagging behind at a 15 year period ?

Keep BIM a long term goal and deliver on the short term what is needed by the user - he just want to get the job done in the shortest possible route available with the best tools available on the market and willing to pay this upgrade price.

[Petri]

VW wasted 5 - 10 years on a BIM model and by then all the most important design features is also lagging behind at a 15 year period ?

Keep BIM a long term goal and deliver on the short term what is needed by the user - he just want to get the job done in the shortest possible route available with the best tools available on the market and willing to pay this upgrade price.

It should be noted that already since last year, all CAD programs used in Government sector work in Finland have been required to be IFC-compatible. Many large private sector clients have the same requirement.

While it may take some time until some developing countries also require the same, it can't take more than a few years when this is a reality in the entire civilized world (ie. the European Union).

[Guest]

Petri - in your case true. You're light years ahead. But I still cannot foreseen a situation of no problems in achieving that goal.

Still is it important to work on the other parameters of the VW CAD base to make it atill a better and attractive to use product.

[atari2600]

Matt,

Maybe I am missing something, but 12.5.2 was a no-cost upgrade right? So why does it sound like you were affected by them releasing VW 2008? The last paid version, 12.0, was released 23 months ago. The free Maintenance upgrade 12.5 was released 12 months ago. I just don't see why you should be bothered by this.

Limei,

I would second anyone here who is suggesting waiting a couple of iterations at least to upgrade the entire office. I may be speaking out of turn, but my guess is the staff at NNA tech support would recommend the same. I always get a single full license of the release software, as soon as it comes out. I am the only one of 17 who uses it, and I make evaluations of how much it will save our staff in time and ease of use. Also I try to find where it breaks our current working environment. After a couple of months I know whether we are going to jump in early or late in the development cycle. I would just say you have to buy the software that does the job you need done, not what is promised in the future.

Limei,

First, thanks for sharing a bit about your process. I tend to be the one of the testers here, and it can certainly be a hassle, especially on top of a normal work load.

In terms of money, we certainly weren't affected by the new release. It is more about the feeling of finally having something actually work "the way it was originally intended to", to all of a sudden have a newer and supposedly better product appear with the intent to replace the product we finally got working. For example, when I buy a car, I expect to be able to drive it, at least over normal roads and under normal circumstances. The mere fact that I had to keep all of my current VW files on my local hard drive for fear of them being corrupted over the network, was a significant problem to me, and prevented the rest of our users from updating until the 12.5.2 version came out. For me, that would have been like buying a car which had the unusual tendency to break down whenever I got on a highway. Most people would have probably brought it back to the dealer in a heartbeat.

Yet I know this is the way it is in the world of software development, but it does get tiring to be a user that doesn't know whether to enjoy the product that "gets the job done", as you put it, or test drive the new product which should get the job done better or more quickly.

I don't know. I still remember when AutoCad R13 came out. Boy, was that version a huge flop. Something about the 13th version of things... Makes me worry just a little bit with VW 2008. I do admit that I'd much rather be on a 13th version of VectorWorks than ANY version of AutoCad.

[Petri]

Petri - in your case true. You're light years ahead.

If I have interpreted the snippet information about VW's market situation correctly, developed countries (= the EU & Japan + maybe some progressive countries like Australia ) represent one third. USA another third. The third third is the third world, which will any day take over the recalcitrant and luddite-conservative USA.

Now, which third - or two thirds, if you like - should, in your opinion, determine the future directions?

[Guest]

Petri - Unfortunately the one third. I do not mind the BIM / IFC protocols etc etc. Let it be there, one way or another it will get here too, only a decade or so lagging.

The problem is that we have the BEE (Black Empowerment Enterprise) bull running here. That type of detail you saw from Shaun (if I remember correct ) is what we have to put out these days in every little drawing otherwise no one on the floor will do stuff correct. (Oh' well even if you give it like that it is still a battle to get anything built accordingly nowadays)

So what do we need - tools to get the job faster done - both 3D and 2D.

If VW keeps on BIMMING for very long they will be BUMMING themselves of the horizon due to lack of decent up to date and at some stages at least something that is a fore runner in the CAD market. Only thing they will have left to be bragging about and have a marketing lead is the BIM part. Still at one stage or other the production speed of getting stuff designed and out to the field will be weighed by the user in terms of production and money.

No use you have a reconized BIM program that BUMMED all other possible and already available tools in other programs of the horizon and leave the user to make a decision to survive by being productive or having a BIM certified program that will ruin him. What will be the bottomline choice ?

I am a VW user now - and I want them to stay on top - they are already lagging in the basic 2D and 3D tools although it is as a base a great CAD.

Just do not see me buying a 2008 version as it is seen as a waste of money for what is on offer.

[Petri]

If VW keeps on BIMMING for very long they will be BUMMING themselves of the horizon due to lack of decent up to date and at some stages at least something that is a fore runner in the CAD market.

What I've also gathered that the growth is elsewhere - in countries where BIM may well be important sooner rather than later. I assume that Nemetschek knows the marketplace.

[Christiaan]

Just do not see me buying a 2008 version as it is seen as a waste of money for what is on offer.

For the cost of an upgrade I'm flabbergasted. If there was ever an easy sell to those holding the purse strings at my work it's v13.

The problem I have with V13 is that it does not deliver that much. There is a concentration and effort in BIM, which is also correct to do.

Co-ordinate rotation, object selection highlighting, saved toolbar preferences/settings, object sensitive contextual menus, automatic object centre when editing, duplicate by points, design layer viewports, true file referencing, CAD management stuff like sending symbols to an unopened file, edit multiple items in a wall, export to AutoCAD 2008, improved navigation between viewports/design layers/annotations, wall component classes, black and white viewports, Mac OS X spotlight integration, wall components in sections, unlimited colours and paint systems integration, object-based opacity. final gather rendering, support for 3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator. None of these are BIM features.

It's difficult to estimate the amount of time they will save (and how much more enjoyable the app will be to use), but I'm picking in our office we will probably save about 1 day of man hours a week. That means in roughly a month we'd have pay-back on the cost of the upgrade... which is, frankly, phenomenal.

How you conclude that v13 "does not deliver that much" is beyond me.

[michael john williams]

I must support the view that it does not deliver that much. Can not see ourselves using the additions. Components in section is a disappointment. Again it is orientated to the us market. Colours looks good but then it has american paints - what use is that to us Brits? Is there going to be a UK version? It is more of correction of shortcomings and faults than an upgrade and should have been a freebie. It may not seem much money but it will be over ?1,000 for an upgrade for 3 licences for us then with training and learning the new tools on top I would say about ?3,000 in total. Now that's a lot of money for a small practice, perhaps 2 to 3 weeks work. And this is not just a one off as it I foresee it will be every year now.

Besides the poor illustrations and few movies do not sell it well.

We will look at it when on show in Bristol.

[Christiaan]

Colours looks good but then it has american paints - what use is that to us Brits? Is there going to be a UK version?

RAL is coming very soon apparently.

It is more of correction of shortcomings and faults than an upgrade and should have been a freebie.

Call them what you want, but you surely can't deny they're time savers?

Besides the poor illustrations and few movies do not sell it well.

Have to agree here. The v12/12.5 website/marketing material was lightyears ahead of v13 efforts.

[Petri]

How you conclude that v13 "does not deliver that much" is beyond me.

Me too. The more I explore 2008, the better the overall feeling. This despite some unfortunate details.

If I'd highlight One Single Big Thing, that'd be view rotation. Finally we are free to work in any coordinate system, without the collapse of registration through a rotated grid or the complexities of opaque constraint definitions or the dangers of rotating objects. (Hey, even I have occasionally rotated the whole b-dy project!)

Have I ever mentioned that 90? angles are something of an exception in my world & my design language? No, I'm no Tange, Aalto, Pietil? or Saarinen nor do I aspire to be. I struggle with this - I honestly do: "Hi, I'm Petri and I am a non-Cartesianholic!" Still, every job comes out strangely distorted, warped and transmogrified.

Besides, in urban design, landscape architecture and recycling of buildings, right angles are usually wrong angles anyway. (Hated the T-square! Yes, I'm that old.)

[Guest]

Tx Christiaan and Petri - good feedback and it is appreciated - Looking for this kind of an actual user - I never said I'm right and you are wrong.

I just give my impression of what I read and did not get a very good or clear picture of this major upgrade from available source - very low impact description / movies / illustrations.

For me a "major upgrade" includes more basic 2D and especially 3D tools.

here ONE (1) upgrade will cost you 589 POUNDS - Buy the three licenses - it is a bargain !