Site Model not Updating to Align with Hardscapes. VW 2024.

[Jack2022]

Hi All,

 

We have a large scheme (in area rather than density). 

 

We have modelled the hard landscape using aligned hardscapes with site modifier stakes to get each hardscape to fall correctly with multi-directional falls. The site model will only update the proposed 3D topography if it is on the same layer as the hardscapes. When it does it displays too much moraying on the hardscapes to be useful. The hardscapes also do not cut the site model even when set to do so. Updating has no effect. 

 

Questions:

 

• Should I be able to choose a layer for the site model to align to? I thought this was a new feature but it doesn't work. I have followed this process but the model only aligns if on the same layer as hardscapes. 

 

• Are there better, slicker, newer methods to create paved areas that can slope in multiple directions other than aligned hardscapes with stake modifiers? This method works well for us but aware things have changed a little in 2024. 

 

• It takes a long time for the site model to update to align with the hardscapes. Is the model just too large an area with too many separate hardscapes? Screen grab below. Note the site model is not aligned in the screen grab.

 

I have tried to split the site model into 4 to reduce load on VW but the edges don't meet cleanly where the cut in contours were made.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Jack

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Jack2022

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, Jack2022 said:

I have tried to split the site model into 4 to reduce load on VW but the edges don't meet cleanly where the cut in contours were made.

you can get them to meet cleanly by including data beyond the edge of your desired site model and then set your crop at the desired edge of the model.  That being said, your site model doesn’t look so large as to require such an approach, it probably just needs to be cleaned up and checked for inefficiencies.

[Jack2022]

1 minute ago, Jeff Prince said:

you can get them to meet cleanly by including data beyond the edge of your desired site model and then set your crop at the desired edge of the model.  That being said, your site model doesn’t look so large as to require such an approach, it probably just needs to be cleaned up and checked for inefficiencies.

 

Thanks Jeff,

 

good to know it's worth me checking through everything. Due to the design we have inherited the parking bays are individual hardscapes (excessive edging courses so using borders) which may be causing headaches for VW. Will audit for errors though. 

[Jack2022]

Finding bad hardscapes resolved the moray issue and it now looks good. Still takes a long time to update site model but once done I it looks correct. 

 

Some hardscapes had thin extensions down to 0 where stakes were poorly aligned. 

 

I didn't know you could crop site models so will try in an idle moment in the future. 

 

I was sure there was a way to snap/align to top of hardscape or bottom. Can you remind me where? struggling to find via google. 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, Jack2022 said:

Finding bad hardscapes resolved the moray issue and it now looks good. Still takes a long time to update site model but once done I it looks correct. 

 

Some hardscapes had thin extensions down to 0 where stakes were poorly aligned. 

 

I didn't know you could crop site models so will try in an idle moment in the future. 

 

I was sure there was a way to snap/align to top of hardscape or bottom. Can you remind me where? struggling to find via google. 

 

 

sounds like you are back on the path to success.  I’m away from a computer right now, but I build my hardscapes so the they build from the top of finish downward and alignment hasn’t been a problem.  I also place all my hardscapes that need to alight with each other in the same DL to avoid confusing VWX.

[Tamsin Slatter]

I would suggest you try the Grade tool alongside your Stakes to control the surface of the site model and then look at Draped as the Site Modifier option in your Hardscapes. Then they will align to the (graded) surface of the site AND cut the site model. It’s magic. Using Aligned means that the hardscapes are looking for specific object types to align with. Draped will align with the site model.

 

Also, if you have problems with getting the site model to respond to different layers, look in the Site Model settings and see which layers are set to modify the model. 

 

I hope that helps. 

[Jack2022]

Thanks Tamsin, 

 

due to the nature of most of our projects we tend not to use site models as most of our urban brown field site surfaces are replaced with paving or planting. For both we use hardscapes as we find the stake modifier the simplest method to get falls in multiple directions on one surface. I understand Landscape Areas can align to falls but only if the site model is present and correctly sloped between hardscapes. We don't tend to use site models as we don't model kerbs (exhaustive to change when levels are inevitably amended through the project stages). Without kerbs the site model pops up to existing level between hardscapes so we don't bother using site models.

 

One thing thats been bugging me about levels is we use stakes set to 2D/3D graphic only in the design layer to create our levels plans (with grades showing falls between stakes). To create the 3D hardscapes we then need to do it all over again in the hardscape surface modifier mode. The reason we do it in '2D/3D graphic only' first is we can use line tools and dims to measure and work out the levels and gradients. In hardscape surface modifier mode you don't have access to measuring tools for distances. 

 

Perhaps we need to start using site models, using grades and stakes there with hardscapes and landscape areas are set to drape. Rather than building the hardscapes then trying to get the site model to align to them. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Jack

[PNWPaul]

12 hours ago, Tamsin Slatter said:

I would suggest you try the Grade tool alongside your Stakes to control the surface of the site model and then look at Draped as the Site Modifier option in your Hardscapes. Then they will align to the (graded) surface of the site AND cut the site model. It’s magic. Using Aligned means that the hardscapes are looking for specific object types to align with. Draped will align with the site model.

 

Also, if you have problems with getting the site model to respond to different layers, look in the Site Model settings and see which layers are set to modify the model. 

 

I hope that helps. 

Hi Tasmin,

Are there any good tutorials videos about using the edit site modifier option ( for alligned hardscaped)  and any for the process you have described. All my designs have paving surfaces with more than one slope, and I have been having difficulty doing this efficiently in VW, but I know there is probably an easy way.

Thanks 

[Poot]

11 hours ago, PNWPaul said:

Hi Tasmin,

Are there any good tutorials videos about using the edit site modifier option ( for alligned hardscaped)  and any for the process you have described. All my designs have paving surfaces with more than one slope, and I have been having difficulty doing this efficiently in VW, but I know there is probably an easy way.

Thanks 

 

 

Take a look at Using site modifiers with hardscapes . Unless you need a hardscapes to work like a slab, path or road, you should now use them like a landscape area draped on the surface like Tamsin mentioned.

 

Use grade objects and stakes in a network to adjust your site, and snap the hardscapes to the site.

 

This is the way.

[PNWPaul]

23 minutes ago, Poot said:

 

 

Take a look at Using site modifiers with hardscapes . Unless you need a hardscapes to work like a slab, path or road, you should now use them like a landscape area draped on the surface like Tamsin mentioned.

 

Use grade objects and stakes in a network to adjust your site, and snap the hardscapes to the site.

 

This is the way.

Hi Poot,

I have multi sloped connected driveways, and parking areas. I connected my grade tool to see if it would create an area to drape hardscapes on and it basically made 4 very wide ditch areas all connected. Is the grade tool something different than what I am thinking ? 

 

[PNWPaul]

1 minute ago, PNWPaul said:

Hi Poot,

I have multi sloped connected driveways, and parking areas. I connected my grade tool to see if it would create an area to drape hardscapes on and it basically made 4 very wide ditch areas all connected. Is the grade tool something different than what I am thinking ? 

 

Just saw the video link, thanks !!! 

[Poot]

34 minutes ago, PNWPaul said:

Just saw the video link, thanks !!! 

This also gives you an idea of how they work. You are basically detailing your heights/3D with the grade objects (also with stakes if you want) which are connected, making it much easier to control for multi-sloped areas. It might still work to use these in combination with slab-like hardscapes (slab/aligned), but in my experience, unless you absolutely need something to function like a flat slab, it becomes more effective to create what you want with several grade objects (along boundary, across for slopes, etc).

Path and road tools sort of automate this process for us.
 

 

Edited March 15 by Poot

[PNWPaul]

27 minutes ago, Poot said:

This also gives you an idea of how they work. You are basically detailing your heights/3D with the grade objects (also with stakes if you want). It might still work to use these in combination with slab-like hardscapes (slab/aligned).
 

 

I tried making a simple 50' x 40' rectangle with 2% slope one direction this way, but the grade was not uniform in the center of the rectangle and it did not grade it flat. It seems when I use the grade tool it has very limited affect away from its line even if connected. Otherwise it would be great to modify the site that way. Are you using it for anything larger than small paths or driveways ? 

[Tamsin Slatter]

It should grade the area within if you create a completely closed set of grades. 

You need to make sure you choose the option to update the site model:

 

And don't forget to enclose with a Grade Limit (mode from the Site Modifiers tool.

 

Here's a screenshot of a small example file - on the Top/Plan view on the left you can see the connect grade objects that create the pathway up to a cafe area at the top right. 

On the 3D view, you can see the impact of those grades on the site, and you can also see where the draped hardscapes have excavated the site.

[PNWPaul]

Thanks Guys for all your help! 

I realized the problem I was having with the testing this method was not putting grade limits around the object, causing the site to grade into the grade object boundary. Works amazing now. 

[Jack2022]

Interesting discussion all. 

 

I have been practicing using stakes and grades to set the site model as recommended. I am not yet sure how this will work with curved footpaths as I use Interpolate a lot for hardscapes with curves and site models don't seem to infer between stakes. 

 

I have found that unlike hardscapes, site models dont seem to infer between stakes. they just grade to existing very steeply. I suppose grades do this job. 

 

Example below is a square area with stakes on corners and grades between. Why doesn't it create a plateau? 

 

 

 

Also:

 

Do grades and stakes need to be on the same layer as the site model? I changed the setting of the site model to choose an alignment layer but it loses its relationship to the grades and stakes. 

[Jack2022]

@PNWPaul seems to have solved the problem I'm having but I am not really clear on how. 

 

I don't really understand the contribution of the Grade Limits tool in this case. 

 

My grades are definitely linked but the middle of the square remains at existing height. Same happens for any shape I try.

 

My entire site model will be regraded as no parts of the site will be retained as existing. As such I dont think grade limits apply. 

 

Also setting the site model to align to a different layer than objects on its own layer really doesn't seem to work either. I place my site model on one layer, draw grades on another, set site model to align to that layer in its settings and nothing happens after an update. Only works if grade objects/site modifiers are on the same layer as the site model. 

 

Many thanks for any help. .

 

Edited March 18 by Jack2022

[Tamsin Slatter]

The Grade Limit determines the area that can be updated by site modifiers. You don't have to put one around every site modifier. But you would enclose an area that is to be updated. They enable you to prevent having to regrade the entire site when you are just making changes in one area.

 

Here's a rough example. I've got the Grade Limit selected so you can see it clearly. So, any of this area will be updated by the addition of site modifiers (pads, grades), but the contours outside this area will be unaffected:

[Jack2022]

Thanks Tamsin.

 

I now understand that part. I ended up editing my post to narrow down my issues. 

 

Are you able to help with my issues? As far as I can tell I have followed previous advice but the issues remain unless i'm missing a key step!

 

Kind regards,

 

Jack 

[Tamsin Slatter]

Apologies Jack - you always need to enclose modifiers with at least one grade limit. It's not a 1:1 relationship. It just sets the boundary for interpolation. The grade limit COULD be the whole site, or you could have several limits if you are making changes in several areas, but don't want to touch the land in between those areas. 
Maybe you want to protect the root zones of existing trees - areas outside a grade limit will not change. Areas inside the grade limit WILL change.

[Jack2022]

Thanks Tamsin - all clear. And it works great now!