window symbol : how you do it?

[blimey]

I'm working on a building with tons of identical windows. So I though : great let's use symbols for windows with an ID tag. The purpose is

A.to be able to update windows

B.to generate windows schedule.

I started with a plugin and got a "window in wall". I then set all the parametres (jamb, sash, width, etc)and created a nice wall wrap with the wall detailing tab and got a pretty nice result.

At that point I was rather happy, say very happy.

=> THEN : I inserted them happily in my drawing. and THERE IS STARTED TO GO ALL WRONG.

1. I tried to edit one to see if it updated. It did but it lost all my nice wall wrapping. So I replaced the 2D part by a 2D drawings but since the new window was narrower, i got a blank space around my new windows as the wall seems to retain the width of the unmodified symbol (I did chang the 3D part too, it didn't help)...

2. I used the ID tool to label the symbol in order to generate a window schedule. It nicely convert the symbol back to a "window in wall" that used the symbol as a geometry with the "on schedule" checked. THE TROUBLE IS that no only are my wall wrapped lost then, but the symbol did not update anymore unless I did a check and unchecking of the "on schedule". That wouldn't be so annoying if I could select all the "windows in wall" at once and do the checking and unchecking thing, but I CAN'T... or can I? I haven't found out. I can only select one window at a time... and update all the window by selecting them one by one...And gosh !!! that's hell...

3. HELP! Did anyone experimented this and has a nice advise for me?

[Travis]

LiMei,

You've run up against the ceiling on windows as symbols, as far as I know.

1) The window PIO is "smart" enough to make some adjustments based on the wall into which it's inserted, such as the wall wrap. Once the object is turned into a symbol, the PIO loses its connection to the wall. Any edits are best done by entering the symbol, copying the window object, exit the symbol and then pasting the window into the wall. Make your parameter edits?which will edit both the 2D and the 3D portions. Then paste the revised window object back "inside" the symbol. This will update every incidence of that window.

2) Placing the ID Label inside the symbol defeats, at least to some degree, it's usefulness. Since it's *technically* only attached to one incident of the window, it won't increment. If you wanted all identical windows to have the same label, maybe this would work, but you wouldn't be able to specify any variations.

I'd be more inclined to use the ID tool to place the labels on the symbols rather than inside. This way the labels would increment, I could specify tempered vs standard glazing, location, trim color, etc.

Good luck,

[blimey]

Hi Travis,

Thank you very much. I tried what you advised. ALAS!!! It didn't work for me. I start with 2) : placing an ID with the ID tool :

2A. I create a plugin => get a "window in wall" :

the size of the window is 200X200 (see the overall width and height in the object info)

2B. I transform that plugin into a symbol=> get a "symbol in wall" :

2C. I use the ID tool to label that symbol :

2D. BANG!!!###!!! : the records says that the window's size is 76,2X121,9 and that's what's listed in the schedule ###!!!!???? Terribly annoying!!!

2E. By the way it is impossible to ID directly in the symbol cause then it doesn't do the wrapping...

[blimey]

ABOUT 1) : EDITING A WINDOW SYMBOL

I tried my best for the editing of the window.

1. I create a window and insert it :

2. I go into the symbol, copy it and exit the symbol without further change

3. I paste the window in my wall and edit it there, change the dimension from 80x200 to 150x200 :

4. I cut it (same result when I copy) and go back in the symbol and paste it. BANG!!! IT LOST ALL MY WRAPPING SETTINGS!!!. I had the same result when editing directly the symbol!!!

[blimey]

Hi Robert,

1. by "making your window unit as symbol" : you mean first creating a window object and then creating from that object a symbol (let's call it W01)? If that's what you mean, that's what I've done (see my point 2B above in my reply to Travis).

2. Then you do another window object and you enable the "use symbol geometry" option and choose W01 as symbol; If that's correct. that's also what I did.

Once this done, you indeed have a window which LOOKS LIKE the W01 symbol.

There are however a few problems that makes the tool NON USABLE:

A. W01 has a width of 200 (pay close attention to the image i've put under 2B., you'll see the width and height of the window), if you use it as an "enabled symbol" within the window object, its width is record as 76,2 although it is drawn 200 width and LOOk AS IF it is 200 width. This is VERY annoying in schedule as you do not notice the problem at first.(look closely at the image under 2D. you'll see the overall width indicate as 76,2; obviously, the windows is drawn as a much larger window).

B. if you edit the symbol W01 (not the window object that uses it as enabled symbol-let's call it WPIO), the change inf the symbol W01 DOES NOT reflect in WPIO unless you check and uncheck the "enable symbol" option. this makes the "enable symbol" option USELESS as there is no point to use a symbol if for updating it you need to go and uncheck then recheck the option in 300 different windows...

If you can tell me what i've done wrong i'd be so happy to find a solution; we've been working on this the whole week and whatever we tried did'nt work. MY CONCLUSION IS : I think it is a bug.

I've sent e-mails and file to techsupport and haven't receive an answer so far.

hope they can find a solution. Thanks any way for your advise. best

[Robert Anderson]

LMT, I have entered these as bugs.

The workaround for (1) is to uncheck the "use symbol geometry" checkbox, add your widths, then re-check it (you probably figured that out already!)

There is not currently a worksround for (2) except to use the "reset all plug-in objects" command. We can probably improve on this, however.

[Robert Anderson]

LMT, the paradigm for VW12 is to make your window unit as a symbol and then enable the "use symbol geometry" option for the window unit. Then you get the individual IDs and window cavity wrapping. You can transfer settings among windows using the Eyedropper tool.

[blimey]

Hi Robert,

our way of doing meantime is to create manual symbol (2/3D with the PIO as a help at start) and to attach it a record.

It's a bit of work but ok. It'll do till maintenance.

Thank you for your answer.

[RV]

Hi Limei,

All the old VWks 11 symbol doors and windows are fine in 12. Why not just stay with these until they get the gremlins fixed? For scheduling you can create a report to get a list of symbols. You do need to be careful to avoid duplication as before. I paste XCENTER and YCENTER functions into my report, export to Excel, sort by X and Y; flag up if consecutive symbols have identical values, go back and locate these in VWks, correct as necessary, do the rest in Excel.

The new schedules only seem to work if the doors and windows have been kept as individuals and thus all the benefits of symbols ("only draw it once") are no longer available.

Power users may disagree? Am on Mac OS 10.3.9...

[RV]

If converting V11 to V12 it is worth being in isometric view first. All the symbols then convert to isometric versions and you can spot the dodgy doors and windows. These appear to be the V11 ones - V10 and previous come out clean.

Basically it's the glazing that is the worst culprit. Avoid glazing until they fix it or stay in V11?

[RV]

You can get your sashes without the dross by using cased openings as a starting point. Use 'custom' sashes and 'custom sash options' to edit - looks fine

[blimey]

Hi RV,

Thank you. Alas for me, I started VW with 11.5 and didn't really got the time to completely go in when VW12 was released. We did the upgrade... and here am I. So it's not really as if I had a base to convert...

Best.