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Moni

New User Wandering in the Woods

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10 hours ago, line-weight said:

This doesn't really answer your questions...but one reason it's difficult to give you answers on the more general ones about whether you should swap, is that I've only really ever used VW for a 3d bim-like workflow. I used Autocad in the ancient 2d past, and I used Archicad briefly also in the distant past, and I have flirted a little with Sketchup but not for serious production drawings. The reason I've stuck with VW is because the effort of changing is so large - not just learning the new programme but having a period projects are running in both applications and so on. I doubt I'm alone in this. So, I don't have much to compare with. Perhaps I have been stuck with an abusive partner for 20 years and just don't realise that it doesn't have to be this way. Or perhaps my notion that I could start a more rewarding relationship with something that looks attractive from a distance is just a grass-is-greener fantasy.

 

I think this is a real problem choosing between CAD programmes actually - and it limits how much trust you can put in reviews, because the only people who really know how good something is are those who use it day in and day out, and few people have the time or brain space to do that with more than one application.

 

So... some of the questions you ask, like "reference plane" objects - well, I have my own ways of trying to keep a handle on that sort of thing, but am unaware of whether these methods would just seem ridiculous to a Revit user. Or do I imagine in my head that Revit probably has much better methods, but a regular user would tell me all the ways that they are limited in their practical usefulness?

 

Also, there is loads of stuff I do in VW that I probably do sub-optimally, and that's the big downside of its flexibility and lack of a "proper" way of doing many things. I might happen to stumble on a better way of doing something (often via posts on here) or I might not. It's not a case of just reading the manual.

 

Most of the above is not very useful commentary for you. One thing I could say though; when I went through the painful process of transitioning from a 2d to 3d (BIM-ish) workflow I think I was overly worried about keeping things under control using reference levels and that sort of thing. I set up a system where I had geometry guidelines all over the place, but actually, in practice, it seems to be the case that VW is fairly tolerant of slightly messy procedures. Once I stopped stressing so much about keeping everything under control, things were better. For example, I'd try and avoid snapping things to other objects, instead preferring to have safely locked reference objects, and adjusting things relative to those wherever possible. Because habits from years of 2d drafting had told me that if I repeatedly snap things to each other, errors gradually build up. Well, I find that in practice I can actually get away with a few "bad habits".

 

The thing that I've found most beneficial to pin down is a system of how you view the working model in 3d, and control visibilities. I make quite extensive use of saved views. The way I organise the model is quite centred on making it easy to navigate and edit. Small things like: I use a layer for each storey, and each storey has the geometry of its floor and the storey below's ceiling on it. This is simply because I can then isolate a single storey (by turning other layers off), and it's much more convenient to be able to look down into it with no "roof" on it. That's why its ceiling belongs to the storey above. But I'm starting to ramble on about my own, possibly eccentric system, because this is not an approach that's specifically advised in any VW guidance, and the fact that I can have this approach is simultaneously VW's greatest benefit and greatest weakness.

For those of us in say the entertainment field who rarely -but not never- need to draw a site or venue to that extent, it's just so helpful to read someone's methodology for solving, dealing-with approaching something like the 'stories' issue. Thanks

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11 hours ago, SVA Architects said:

Ps.  The above may have seemed off topic.  However I am on a similar position to the headline writer except I am the opposite ie I am a user of VW for 15+ years who is looking at Revit for things like accurate representation of architectural sections drawn from the model base plans.  Our new architect is an experienced Revit user.  She is in the middle of a VW Architect trial to fit into our ecosystem and is finding it a disappointment.  We need to meet in the middle somehow either by me showing her VW can compete on BIM or her persuading me to switch. 

I know nothing about Revit but I'm interested: would a section through the model in Revit produce accurate detailing of individual roof tiles as per your example?

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2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

I know nothing about Revit but I'm interested: would a section through the model in Revit produce accurate detailing of individual roof tiles as per your example?

That is the key for me. Any competent draftsman can draw plans and elevations quickly in 2d. To me the power if 3d and BIM should lie in AI and machine learning for section production with accuracy and easy editing/material selection. Lots of correction with line drawing over blanked out incorrect fills negates the advantages. 

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45 minutes ago, SVA Architects said:

 Lots of correction with line drawing over blanked out incorrect fills negates the advantages. 

 

I have to say - and I spend plenty of time on here complaining about VW's many, intensely frustrating, limitations - for me, I've found it doesn't negate the advantages. I drew in 2d for many years, starting on paper, and have some pride in my 2d drafting abilities. But having forced myself to transition to a 3d workflow - I just wouldn't go back now. I've recently spend some time doing a bit of external work for another practice which still draws in 2d, and found it really tedious going back to that method.

 

You can choose where you draw the line between 3d and 2d. I'd say it's quite feasible to draw up to a scale of 1:100 or maybe 1:50 in 3d without needing to go and mess around in annotations. This I'd have to say, means me accepting a few compromises in the quality of the output (I could make a somewhat nicer drawing manually, but having got various things worked out, the difference is now fairly marginal).

 

Then at closer scales, it's up to you whether you want to take a hybrid approach (which is what I do), do it purely in 2d, or maybe do it in 2d traced off the basic geometry of a generated section.

 

The benefits of the 3d workflow aren't just in the speed of final output - it's the whole process. Examining details in 3d I find really helpful. It makes it much more natural to think through things like assembly sequence. That's just me of course. But I'm someone who's spent plenty of time working in the 2d world, and I understand the methods and benefits of that mode of drawing. Like I say, I wouldn't go back now. The transition was really rather painful but I'm glad I did it.

 

My only caveat might be - I do small-ish projects where it's just me working on the drawings. For bigger, multi user projects, maybe it would be a different story.

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Same here ^. 100%. That's why I'm interested in the specific example of the roof tiles + whether Revit handles it better. Once you have your wall/slab/roof styles set up properly they effectively draw themselves + the interface between them in section detail is excellent. So much better than painstakingly drawing it in 2D. But the roof tile example is a special case because you're expecting a hatch or tile to go in two different directions which isn't generally a requirement when it comes to other components.

 

The other thing for me is horizontal cladding on walls which would be nice to show one way in vertical section + another way in plan

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2 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Once you have your wall/slab/roof styles set up properly they effectively draw themselves + the interface between them in section detail is excellent.

 

I wouldn't quite agree with this - I'd say the interface is "adequate" in section up to say 1:100 scale or maybe 1:50 for GA type drawings. And I would in some cases be able to draw it more correctly manually.

 

It depends on the construction type really... there are some interfaces that you might manage to get drawn sufficiently correctly for a construction detail, and some you can't.

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I'd be quite impressed with any application that could draw roof tiles fully correctly. It would have to know how to set them out across the roof slope, keeping within max/min cover dimensions, and it would have to know about details at ridge and eaves which might involve special-size tiles. And ideally it would draw battens and know about tilting fillets and all this kind of thing. For vertical walls it would have to know how to draw the details around window openings, etc.

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33 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Once you have your wall/slab/roof styles set up properly they effectively draw themselves + the interface between them in section detail is excellent.

Ok agreed I qualify this statement: in certain circumstances, in highly controlled conditions, they can look excellent!

Slab/wall interface I think is very good but wall/roof leaves a bit to be desired + there has been discussion here about how more control is needed

But I fully admit my experience is fairly limited so far

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3 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'd be quite impressed with any application that could draw roof tiles fully correctly. It would have to know how to set them out across the roof slope, keeping within max/min cover dimensions, and it would have to know about details at ridge and eaves which might involve special-size tiles. And ideally it would draw battens and know about tilting fillets and all this kind of thing. For vertical walls it would have to know how to draw the details around window openings, etc.

All great points made in recent posts above. I am always on the lookout for automation of 3d detailing. The best I have seen so far for this specific thing is Plusspec, a Sketchup plugin that has real materials (even labelled insulation batts!)  and intelligent lintels over windows that change profile with span and timber trusses and rafters/hips that are generated as part of a roof component.  Mostly tailored for Australian single storey buildings and material suppliers at the moment however. I am in UK. 

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