ENERGOS 2020

[A McDonell]

VW 2020, Energos, does it work? Is anyone using professionally? 

 

Given the historic lack of information or responses to questions coming from VW inc.... Is there an employee out there in 2020 willing to talk about the status of this module with any specificity? or is it another half finished Vectorworks tool?

[fabrica]

there is a recent 2020 webinar on the vectorworks university site on energos - (haven't watched it yet) or this might be of use? : https://www.markstephensarchitects.com/shop/vectorworks-energos-training-notes/

 

[A McDonell]

9 hours ago, fabrica said:

there is a recent 2020 webinar on the vectorworks university site on energos - (haven't watched it yet) or this might be of use? : https://www.markstephensarchitects.com/shop/vectorworks-energos-training-notes/

 

thankyou! ill have a look.

[A McDonell]

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by A McDonell

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

On 4/5/2020 at 4:05 AM, A McDonell said:

VW 2020, Energos, does it work? Is anyone using professionally? 

 

Given the historic lack of information or responses to questions coming from VW inc.... Is there an employee out there in 2020 willing to talk about the status of this module with any specificity? or is it another half finished Vectorworks tool?

 

Hello @A McDonell,

 

Did you figure out what is the issue? If not, could you tell me what exactly is not working for you?

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

[A McDonell]

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov. Thankyou for your response.

I was asking more generally because my trawling through these forums and the various VW materials revealed a conspicuous silence around Energos. Before I invested to much time in learning the tool I wanted to get some feedback as to how buggy/ accurate/ usable it is. I have had bad experiences in the past (site model etc...). Heres are some initial questions arising from my first few hours of exploration...

 

1. Any timeline for when Energos will be able to account for shading in an automated way, based on modelled objects and their relationship between the sun the building. This would bring the tool closer to the iterative power of lady bug in rhino for example

2. does the climate data base gathered via heliodon provide wind data? is this accounted fro through the "screening" calcs in "air tightness"

3. do in accuracies in drawing, such as a wall not perfectly connecting to a roof, effect the modelling?

4. When i change my many significant settings, such as boiler settings (my sole heat source in a large building, with predominantly heating demand requirements) there is no change in the various outputs after update.

5. What is the best way to model the air exchange driven performance between an entry way with or without an airlock?

6. Why does the label tool not display a title text of some kind according to its basic oip setting "result value". Then it might actually be a useful data vis tool to decribe to client where various options are working or not.

8. Is there a way to extract the data listed at the bottom of the oip of an Energos Label? (even Copy and Paste would be fine)

7. Is anyone else experiencing the label tool locking up VW every so often?

 

...more to come i'm sure

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

Hello @A McDonell,

 

I am not that much in the terminology but I will try to answer your questions.

 

1. There is not such update planned for energos for now, could you add a wishlist item for it in the wishlist forum?
2. No, the airtightness data is manually entered.
3. Yes, the drawing should be accurate
4. I think that the change of the boiler settings should update the results. Do you have a test file to send me?
5. Not really sure about this one, maybe try using termal bridges?
6. You can play around with the label settings to adjust it to have a layout that suits you. If you prefer to have more numerical data, you can create a worksheet report from that label that has titles, calculations, etc.
7. I will need a test file and steps to reproduce this one too.
8. Worksheet report of the label should make this possible.

 

I hope these answers help you. 🙂

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

[Samuel Derenboim]

Hi @Nikolay Zhelyazkov,

 

1. Will functions like WALLAREA_GROSS, WALLAREA_NET, WALLTHICKNESS be added to tags? I thought about simply adding an energos record to a wall, but it does not fill in the properties set therein for U values, Gross areas, net areas, etc... is there a way to do this? (that would be my work around for using the information)

 

The reason i need to call out these areas are for energy requirements reviewed at the local building department (NYC) and WallArea_NET or WallArea_Gross (that can be called out in worksheets) does not exist in the tag tool. I need to somehow show it in plan or elevation for clarity, and then calculation the UA averages for say, southern walls, northern walls, etc...per floor

 

2. why create a separate energos label if windows, walls, floors and the like can be linked to energos via their properties?

3. Is there a reason why energy calculations and dimensional measurements for wall areas are calculated based on centerline of wall?

4. How do you call out energos wall orientation for a wall, window, door or curtainwall without manually attaching the energos record to the object?

5. When some objects are called out via orientation, they are represented by numbers. How does one translate it to South, North, East, West etc...? Is there a way to set these parameters in the Data manager?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

Hello @Samuel Derenboim,

 

1. The WallThickness function is already added in the Data Tag object functions. The other two are not available anywhere else, apart from the worksheets I think. If you want them added in the Data Tag or somewhere else, could you add a post in the wishlist thread for that?

2. I do not understand this. Do you mean energos records?

3. I think that we should be using the open side of the wall for the area calculations. Only if we are not certain which is the open side we use the centerline.

4. 5. - These values are saved as indices. The order that they are representing is - North, NorthEast, East, SouthEast, South, SouthWest, West,  NorthWest, Horizontal.

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

[Samuel Derenboim]

31 minutes ago, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

Thank you @Nikolay Zhelyazkov ,

1. Wall thickness isn't as important on the diagramatic drawings as areas area, thats the reason why i was curious, I will post this on the wish list as you mention. Thank you

2. Energos records are in the resource manager library - see image below. What i want is to link the wall areas, location and u values using the data manager to the attached record. Is this possible?

 

3. How do you reference the open side of the wall areas ? Compareabyname ? or is there another method? Something to note, length and area are only different on the open side of the wall if it has a corner connection that are joined in wall connection L mode.

 

To get the outer areas only in that condition, one would need to specify the ( wall thickness + wall length ) * Height in order to get the outer area otherwise

walloverallheight and =Length work. (Is there a conditional statement to callout L joined mode to calculate outer areas / dimensions?)

i.e. - if ((insert condition of wall connected in L mode), Walloverallarea + (wallthickness*Walloverallheight), Walloverallarea)

 

4. Same question applies to length - how do i reference length of open areas of wall? It will be different than the actual length of the wall?

Note - same condition would apply to the application of length in outer areas - Outerlength in L joined mode = Length+wallthickness

 

5. Is there a list of what the numbers mean? and how do i update the locations of the walls? do i move the holeidon tool in reference to those walls? Some of them do not match in terms of north, east, south, west, etc... See below

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

@Samuel Derenboim,

 

2. Energos records are used to define additional objects, different from the default wall, window, etc. for use in energos. The data in them is used and updated only if the object is not one of the standard objects and has energos record attached to it. In other words, I think that the answer is no.

3. This is done in the energos calculations. Usually the wall orientations depend on the spaces or slabs the walls touch.

4. I think we are using the actual length and we are calculating only the net area, by removing the area of the windows, doors, etc.

5. I have given you the list above. North, NorthEast, East, SouthEast, South, SouthWest, West,  NorthWest, Horizontal.

[Samuel Derenboim]

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov it seems you're right, energos has a different outer wall area, see below. My question is - how do i call out Energos version of the wall area & wall length? It seems that energos record can only be called out once the record is inside of the file.

 

However, either way, even if i did want to call out it via IFC, there is no information that is see that i can reference the information shown in the Energos Project settings building Elements list. Perhaps there is something I am unaware of?

 

Attached is a screen shot of energos wall record in IFCWallStandardCase. The information regarding Area, Uvalue, orientation, etc... is not filled in or referenced - which is why i wanted to somehow fix it using the DataManager

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

19 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

it seems you're right, energos has a different outer wall area, see below. My question is - how do i call out Energos version of the wall area & wall length? It seems that energos record can only be called out once the record is inside of the file.

- The values calculated in energos could be extracted from the Energos Label object or in worksheets. Not sure about the length though.

 

19 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

However, either way, even if i did want to call out it via IFC, there is no information that is see that i can reference the information shown in the Energos Project settings building Elements list. Perhaps there is something I am unaware of?

- Currently only the U-Value could be automatically extracted in the IFC data of walls. In order to do this you must have a styled wall that has the pSet pSet_WallCommon and the default data mapping that maps the U-Value to the ThermalTransmittance property of the styled wall.

[Samuel Derenboim]

Good Morning @Nikolay Zhelyazkov ,

Thank you for your help.

 

1. I've taken a look at the Energos label settings, and i noticed that it has some of the information, but I do not know how to extract it into the worksheets, namely Areas or orientation. I've added a space to the test drawing and it deduces North, East, West, South correctly, but getting that data out is the hardest part.

 

Do you have a string or formula that I can enter to get area and orientation information for walls, windows, slabs, etc... in a worksheet?

 

2. I'm attaching the test drawing with the data sheets inside. Compare the areas inside, they do not unfortunately calculate the outer wall area surface, or the net area. I'm not sure what they're calculating as the areas are off by 4-6 s.f. each. Here is an example screenshot for reference.

 

Energy_Bim_Additional Wall Insulation test_Forum.vwx

 

 

So in the screen shot are three windows that are important - 1 - energos building elements list, 2 - a worksheet that extracts wall area lengths, gross areas and net areas, and three, the extraction of geometry from the wall itself to calculate the true surface area.

 

The west wall surface is extracted as 208.77 s.f. (not sure if this is gross or net) however, either the way the calculation doesn't work.

Lets say for argument sake it is net. We have one window on that wall that is 25.67 s.f. in area. The actual wall height is 10'-0" by 21'5 1/8". The core is placed at the center of the stud side.

 

208.77 + 25.67 = 234.44 s.f. / 10' height = 23.44 foot length. Actual wall length is 21'5 1/8". The area seems closest to sheet rock side (noted as 20'8 7/8" length x 10'-0" = 209 s.f. +-. I don't know why it doesn't calculate the outer surface area. See below for screen shot of wall style properties. (note: changing the insulation from outer finish to insulation doesn't change the area)

 

 

If I extract the surface of the wall, I get 188.589 s.f. (net) + 25.67 s.f. window = 214.259 s.f. / 10'-0 Wall height = 21.4259 ft length or 21' 5.11" which is the correct length.

 

This is not to say that the gross area and the length of the wall in the worksheet are grossly different - 20' 2 1/8" Length, and Area being 201.766 s.f, but at least I understand how Vectorworks PIO is getting that information.

 

Thank you for your consideration and help once again.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

Hello @Samuel Derenboim,

 

1. I am attaching an example worksheet report of the Energos Label Object. You need the energos label to display the Name, Orientation and Area of the building elements and you can use this report from the attached vwx file. Label Report Example.vwx

 

2. I am going to add a bug about this so that we can check the math done in Energos. I will let you know here when there is progress on the bug.

 

Thank you for the feedback! 🙂

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

[Samuel Derenboim]

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov  Thank you!

 

I inserted the worksheet into the drawing, but its not returning any information. Is there something in particular i need to add?

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

50 minutes ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov  Thank you!

 

I inserted the worksheet into the drawing, but its not returning any information. Is there something in particular i need to add?

Yes, you need energos label object with Name, Orientation and Area of the building elements in its OIP.

[Samuel Derenboim]

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov  Hm, I tried that. for some reason i can't get it to work.

 

Also, since you submitted a bug report, just wanted to let you know, the areas for corner windows are inaccurate as well. If you take a look at a corner window - Dimensions are 6'5 1/8" x 5'6 (they are measured in the window PIO as 6'-0" by 5'6). In either situation, they do not amount to 66 s.f.

 

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

You need the energos label object. You can read more about it here - https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2020/eng/index.htm#t=VW2020_Guide%2FEnergyAnalysis%2FPlacing_an_Energos_label_on_the_drawing.htm&rhsearch=energos label&rhhlterm=energos label&rhsyns=

 

[Samuel Derenboim]

I did do that.

I got a single row returned for the south wall, without any understanding of the representation of the areas - which are windows, which are doors, or walls, etc...

 

Here is actual building element list from PIO

 

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

The Data in the energos label gets all objects included in the calculations. I suppose your element with index 1 (0 in the worksheet) is a roof maybe. You can modify the report to show the element type aswell. In order to get the correct information you will need to know the index of the element you need from the Building Elements List.

[Samuel Derenboim]

@Nikolay Zhelyazkov Thank you again for your input. Just some notes if you are to help design a (perhaps) for reliable system for energy performance modeling....

 

In terms of the element ID, I think youre right. Seems that the numbers displayed in the elements list display the information for that particular row.  For me there are two problems with that. Notwithstanding the surface area math and corner window improper area calculations, one would need to create a separate table column for every element ID in energos in the hopes that it will return the proper information. I suppose one could use a conditional statement along with a concat callout referencing a +1 sum starting from element 1 to try to display all of the fields, but it seems certainly counterintuitive. Only yesterday i learned of the concat command and how useful it can be.

 

The second problem that i see is that the energos label records the information one time, and prints it out as editable text rather than something that's directly related to the wall , window, door etc. (correct me if I'm wrong, but the worksheet you sent showed the text as editable, therefor it wasn't a constrained record directly relating to a wall, window, etc...). the problem with that is it opens up potential user error should a user update the plan, but not the energos label.

 

I also don't understand why energos does not record the wall, floor or roof type name in the name field along with doors and windows. Seems strange to me that it doesn't identify which walls are which should the situation arise that there are multiple wall types in one orientation. It also does not record the story on which the walls, slabs, windows or doors are located. The only clue you might get is the R value.

 

I spoke to a representative yesterday regarding this issue because i had a separate problem from this one, but since energos came up in our conversation, i sent a sample file showing my attempt at getting live information from walls, curtainwalls, windows and doors. That will be the information I use for the local zoning ordinance for a tabular approach. Hope it helps.

 

Thanks again.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Samuel Derenboim

[Nikolay Zhelyazkov]

20 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

In terms of the element ID, I think youre right. Seems that the numbers displayed in the elements list display the information for that particular row.  For me there are two problems with that. Notwithstanding the surface area math and corner window improper area calculations, one would need to create a separate table column for every element ID in energos in the hopes that it will return the proper information. I suppose one could use a conditional statement along with a concat callout referencing a +1 sum starting from element 1 to try to display all of the fields, but it seems certainly counterintuitive. Only yesterday i learned of the concat command and how useful it can be.

- The bug for the incorrect areas is already created, there is nothing more I can say about that for now. The need of a separate column is unfortunate but this is the way this works now with the Energos Label. You can always view the data from the Energos Project Settings dialog or export it to a table and have it structured better there.

 

20 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

The second problem that i see is that the energos label records the information one time, and prints it out as editable text rather than something that's directly related to the wall , window, door etc. (correct me if I'm wrong, but the worksheet you sent showed the text as editable, therefor it wasn't a constrained record directly relating to a wall, window, etc...). the problem with that is it opens up potential user error should a user update the plan, but not the energos label.

- The report that I showed you is linked to the Energos Label object. Modifying it modifies the label object only. There is no automatic updating of the label but if you update the label with the button in the OIP then all of the labels in the file are getting updated I think.

 

20 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said:

I also don't understand why energos does not record the wall, floor or roof type name in the name field along with doors and windows. Seems strange to me that it doesn't identify which walls are which should the situation arise that there are multiple wall types in one orientation. It also does not record the story on which the walls, slabs, windows or doors are located. The only clue you might get is the R value.

- I think that if the wall is named its name will appear in energos too. Also, you can select the wall from the energos dialog with the button in Edit Building Elements list.

 

For any other things that you find and think should not be that way you can create a thread in the wishlist forum and they will be considered.

 

[Samuel Derenboim]

Thank you, will do.

[A McDonell]

hey  @Nikolay Zhelyazkov , im pretty time constrained at the moment but i took some time to trial an error with ernegos... results below 

On 4/7/2020 at 4:20 PM, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

Hello @A McDonell,

 

I am not that much in the terminology but I will try to answer your questions.

 

1. There is not such update planned for energos for now, could you add a wishlist item for it in the wishlist forum?
2. No, the airtightness data is manually entered.
3. Yes, the drawing should be accurate
4. I think that the change of the boiler settings should update the results. Do you have a test file to send me?
5. Not really sure about this one, maybe try using termal bridges?
6. You can play around with the label settings to adjust it to have a layout that suits you. If you prefer to have more numerical data, you can create a worksheet report from that label that has titles, calculations, etc.
7. I will need a test file and steps to reproduce this one too.
8. Worksheet report of the label should make this possible.

 

I hope these answers help you. 🙂

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

1. maybe next weekend
2. Idea....should be controlled by the space objects (as well as heating and cooling requirements etc...) this would make the final info much more accurate
3. Wrong, kind of, the drawing doesn't have to be accurate....

Roof object- no change when disconnected from walls (floating above)

Space object - no change if the space object doest touch walls, or is smaller than the slab size, DOES change results if the area is bigger than the slab (ie outside the walls)

Slab object- DOES alter results if the slab is more than 10mm lower than base of walls(or space object z value), DOESNT if its 10mm or less lower than walls(or space object z value)

Window object- doesnt alter 

Wall objects- lack of resolved connection to each other doesn't effect results, lack of connection to floor slab or space z value does, lack of connection to 

4.  another time
5. thanks, thats working well

IDEA... it would be great if energos had a function to show us any objects that are thermal bridging (eg structural members for instance, or component to component connections badly organised.
6. Not really (are you talking about the 3 graphic options?), some self generated headings would be a good start to improve this.
7. another time
8. to time consuming, and multiple energos label tools in one viewport seems to make VW lock up and die, i have deleted them all from my document, took about an hour because VW was wigging out as usual, ill just screen grab the info until the soft engineers can make it work properly.

IDEA... maybe VW should supply some energos reports preprogrammed for their service select members, something with ALL or MOST the info gathered, which we can then just edit as needed.

 

 

Thanks for your time though, i can see your dedication and patience above

Cheers,

Andy