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gentlegiant67

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That discussion has been had elsewhere ad infinitum on this board so I'm not going to get into here. Suffice to say it is not economic for the projects we do.

Well Christiaan, It will not be economic for your first projects you do bim, but this will never be the case because you need to learn to use it effectively. My first bim projects took me much time, but now I am faster then drawing everything 2D. And while the first draft isn't that much faster for the two methods, once you need to alter the design, it's a lot faster with bim.

With VW you can do bim very effectively for almost everything, except for the sections. We still draw sections in 2D because VW can't give it to us right now.

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Suffice to say it is not economic for the projects we do.

This is what it boils down to ....... VWs needs to do things faster than say a combination of SketchUp(3D) + Draftsight(2D), both free software.

At the moment it's hanging in the balance, where as Revit and ArchiCAD achieve this adequately, for justifying a 3D to 2D workflow, VWs need alot of extra 'fixing' which almost adds up to as much work as a totally separated 2D, 3D workflow combination and that is what NVWs should concentrate on getting rid of.

Edited by Vincent C

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It will not be economic for your first projects you do bim, but this will never be the case because you need to learn to use it effectively.

The learning curve is important Dieter, when VWs comes out every year your workflow changes each year and also the need to learn again, if it takes a long time to learn again and again the economic advantage has been lost. ie. Either things need to be easier or more intuitive, preferably both.

Edited by Vincent C

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I assure you that VW is faster than SU + DS combination.

Elevation and section viewports are very good even with some necessary 2D fixing .. Definitely better and faster than drafting everything in 2D.

But you have to use it. The way of thinking is different and one has to learn and adopt it.

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Perhaps it is, when 3D and 2D are always required however that is generally not the case.

Edited by Vincent C

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Perhaps it is when 3D and 2D are always required however that is generally not the case.

Sorry, I don't get it. What do you mean?

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I mean that in my experience in most projects only 2D info is (still) generally required (even at large firms) and that 3D info is an extra that most can offer because it is part of modern CAD programs, it is appreciated, even expected but rarely demanded.

Most 3D work and renderings for me come at an early stage in a project and using VWs to create them, this usually means a lot of excellent 3D modeling that is of little use later on when the project really picks up and needs to be drafted correctly resulting in very specific 2D output.( I consider myself a fairly experienced VW user so I don't consider this to be a lack of experience, I use the tools best suited for the job at the time, apparently most PIOs are not up to it yet).

This is a very recent project and non of it is PIOs, basically it is done as you would in SU. (It took me 2 days, it wouldn't have if I had set it up with stories, walls, roofs windows etc......too tedious and specific.)

Edited by Vincent C

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I mean that in my experience in most projects only 2D info is (still) generally required (even at large firms) and that 3D info is an extra that most can offer because it is part of modern CAD programs, it is appreciated, even expected but rarely demanded.

Well, yes. That's true...

But I use VW 3d/BIM capabilities (and SU fast modelling capabilities) for my own - architect/designer needs.

Fast feedback, better control, 2d viewports reflect changes in the model .. I just like it! :)

Btw 2D part of VW is far better drafting program than Draftsight..

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This is a very recent project and non of it is PIOs, basically it is done as you would in SU. (It took me 2 days, it wouldn't have if I had set it up with stories, walls, roofs windows etc......too tedious and specific.)

No walls? No windows?

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Does anyone here extolling the value of working in 3D in VW work in other than a 1-2 person practice? Amongst those do any work on dense urban social housing projects under Design and Build contracts?

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Does anyone here extolling the value of working in 3D in VW work in other than a 1-2 person practice? Amongst those do any work on dense urban social housing projects under Design and Build contracts?

Good question. I tried to google:

http://www10.aeccafe.com/blogs/arch-showcase/2011/06/16/4-towers-in-osdorp-amsterdam-the-netherlands-by-wiel-arets-architects/#more-28554

http://www.wielaretsarchitects.nl/

http://www10.aeccafe.com/blogs/arch-showcase/2011/10/15/kenmore-library-in-washington-by-weinstein-au/#more-49249

http://www.weinsteinau.com/

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I couldn't see any evidence that they do social housing, on tight urban sites, and derive all their production information from a single model.

And I wouldn't be surprised if they use 3D modelling in the same way we do: one person models the building in a simple manner good enough for 3D visuals. Floor plans are drawn separately. No modelling is done for production information.

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I couldn't see any evidence that they do social housing, on tight urban sites, and derive all their production information from a single model.

You can ask them what and how they do (info@wielarets.nl )

I was only looking for some larger projects ...

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Sure, my question was rhetorical though really Bohdan. I don't seriously expect to find architects who:

1. Work under design-build contracts

2. Work on social housing

3. Work with highly constrained dense urban sites

4. And do all this by deriving their production information from a 3D model in Vectorworks

And any that do I would imagine are fortunate enough to be blessed with a high percentage of employees who happen to be highly skilled in freeform modelling/editing, highly skilled in Workgroup Referencing and highly disciplined with filing. Including the director(s).

The fact is that the vast majority of those who say that deriving production information from a 3D model in Vectorworks is straight forward enough are sole operators.

And this confirms my experience. I know it's straightforward enough when you're the single person working on a project (or one or two on and off), despite it still being far less than ideal. But it doesn't scale. Once you work on a project that requires a team of people, this way of working in VW becomes a hindrance. And it becomes worse the more workarounds you have to implement.

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.. I don't seriously expect to find architects who:

1. Work under design-build contracts

2. Work on social housing

3. Work with highly constrained dense urban sites

4. And do all this by deriving their production information from a 3D model in Vectorworks

Bang on the money. We hit 1,2,3 but not 4 of course...

BUT we're going to give it a go on a trial project in VW2012. We want to see if the Single Building Model (by which I mean 2D from 3D) can be done on these jobs or not. If it doesn't work it might be the nail in the coffin for our 35 Vectorworks licences and we'll assess whether we need to move to Revit. We HAVE to be prepared for the industry move towards BIM here in the UK.

(We plan to get some training from CU about how to go about doing the 2D from 3D. Our current arrangement, like yours is a separate 3D VW visual model prepared by different staff to those doing the 2D drawings.)

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We're thinking the same thing. I've had a tentative go on a small house but aborted when the project being run concurrently in 2D got ahead of me. At that point I was pissing about with roof modelling, endless settings and floor/wall joins trying to make the sections look tidy, trying to make integral door/windows look right, window sills, and trying to model mock tudor timbers as VW wall projections. I found I couldn't do the later in this way because VW doesn't allow wall projections at the corners of walls (typical VW fail). The wall projections feature was a selling point I'd used to suggest the project as a trial.

Things have improved quite a bit in v2012 (loving the UK localisation of the window and door tools, and it's very stable) so I'm still hopeful, but realistic.

Look forward to hearing how you go Chris.

There's no way we'd ditch Macs so we're hoping Revit will come to Mac OS X, at which point we'd seriously consider it. We'd probably feel all dirty in the process but if we stick with VW and it continues to under deliver we could find ourselves up creek without a paddle, for the reasons you point out.

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There's no way we'd ditch Macs so we're hoping Revit will come to Mac OS X, at which point we'd seriously consider it.

Just get Windows and Parallels......no need to ditch the Macs......or get ArchiCAD it will do the job as good as Revit.

Edited by Vincent C

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I wouldn't want to go down the Revit, Windows and virtualisation route. We have a very low IT overhead because everything practically runs itself. Throwing Windows and virtualisation into the mix would seriously compromise that. Also we'd have to buy Windows and use a Windows interface. I'm hoping they'll go the same route they went with AutoCAD for Mac and create a native Mac version with a Mac interface.

ArchiCAD is certainly an option but I wish they'd do something about their Mac interface (instead of simply using their Windows interface).

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There's no way we'd ditch Macs

We have the same opinion....but never say never.

After 15 years of Apple servers we moved to a Windows server last year so that all of our user folders could be virtualised and we can can now log on to any Mac and see our home folder and settings. Works OK generally but Spotlight doesn't work which is a pain in the derriere..

Anyway I'm even more off topic than the rest of this thread..but suffice to say that if Revit came to the Mac we'd have the trial version installed on day one... The platform investment is keeping us faithful to VW at the moment..let's hope NV Inc make good use of the time before Revit does arrive on the Mac...

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On the subject of Apple hardware we're dreading Apple dropping the Mac Pro line. With the exception of the odd iMac like mine, we have an office full of Cinema Displays on swivel arms, with headless Macs (Mac Pros). The Mac Mini uses mobile parts and doesn't have the grunt to run VW very well...so what are we to do...we'd be into Hackintosh territory to stay with OS X...

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After 15 years of Apple servers we moved to a Windows server last year so that all of our user folders could be virtualised and we can can now log on to any Mac and see our home folder and settings.

But you can do this with Mac OS X Server can't you?

On the subject of Apple hardware we're dreading Apple dropping the Mac Pro line. With the exception of the odd iMac like mine, we have an office full of Cinema Displays on swivel arms, with headless Macs (Mac Pros). The Mac Mini uses mobile parts and doesn't have the grunt to run VW very well...so what are we to do...we'd be into Hackintosh territory to stay with OS X...

Yeah we bought iMacs this year and we're selling our G5s on eBay. What we did with all the spare cinema displays is get DVI to Thunderbolt adaptors and gave everyone a second display, which has worked out great.

We'll also be upgrading our server with a Mac Mini.

Edited by Christiaan

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But you can do this with Mac OS X Server can't you?

Probably, but we use external IT support now and we had to go with a solution they were prepared to manage.

Yeah we bought iMacs this year

Our experience with iMacs is chequered....quite a few logic board failures...mobile parts getting desktop hammer. Are the graphics card options sufficient for large project files in VW2012?

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You'd think a 2GB AMD Radeon HD 6970M card would be enough but I noticed a tiny bit of lag even on a small 2 storey house in OpenGL. Don't hold much hope for a large project. The thing is VWs OpenGL implentation is simply woeful (ArchiCAD, for instance, doesn't have this problem).

Maybe Apple will introduce a much higher end iMac when the Mac Pros go, with a desktop grade graphics card. But then there'd have to be some sort of compromise on the cooling front (noisy fans?) and thickness.

Edited by Christiaan

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Sure, my question was rhetorical though really Bohdan. I don't seriously expect to find architects who:

1. Work under design-build contracts

2. Work on social housing

3. Work with highly constrained dense urban sites

4. And do all this by deriving their production information from a 3D model in Vectorworks

Well, we also do 1,2 and 3. Number 4 is in the works. I've done two office buildings as "little BIM" but a lot of elements need to be custom made (especially windows and roofs). I sure hope VW will response to this thread as it looks more and more people are looking at other software options. I already had a look at Archicad as well, roofs look great (a part which we really need if we want to create social housing in 3d in the Netherlands). Let's hope for some good news when 2012 comes out here in the Netherlands.

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Sure, my question was rhetorical though really Bohdan. I don't seriously expect to find architects who:

1. Work under design-build contracts

2. Work on social housing

3. Work with highly constrained dense urban sites

4. And do all this by deriving their production information from a 3D model in Vectorworks

We do all of this, but not constantly. We have other projects too.

But we do not derive everything from the 3D model, VW isn't always ready for sections for example, but they give a good base to work on. Our elevations are always derived from the model. We do 2D elevations only for special occasions.

We now also do the terrain as dtm. It's hard at first, but it's really good when you have a terrain that's not really flat. I had a project this year where the terrain difference was more than 4m.

I would recommend to everyone to adapt to bim, even if it is in small steps. It is worth it, even in small projects. The initial draft doesn't give you a time benefit, but it's all the adjustments afterward that do, and it really saves a lot of time!

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