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Vincent C

PC or Mac

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from: http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=123635Post123635

Indeed you could get a little more memory. If a rendering on Win reaches its 1.5 limit, then you might have too little for the rest of the machine. You have a total of 2GB.

Nevertheless, when I had to do large renderings (models with over 250MB and some heavy realistic textures) I had no other way than render on Mac. Win didn't manage them.

* win: max memory for one application 1.5GB

* mac: max memory for one application 3.0GB

Here, the faster the processor the better.

As a whole, for largish renderings you might be compelled to leave Renderworks. It pains me to say this, but is true.

orso

This would a BIG determining factor as to which one is the best to buy for VW.

Does anyone know why the max memory is different across the two platforms.

Is this so with other tipe of applications aswell, like Photoshop, Corel, C4D, Artlantis, Blender??

If VW is the only one, then why??

The max memory will be the same for both windows and mac osx if you compare the two 32 bit versions.

I now have windows 7 RC 64 bit and I wished that I went 64 bit earlier, it's so much faster. I know that VW isn't technicaly faster on a 64 bit machine, but slower, but because of all the other programs that can now take the rest of the GB, VW can take more of th 3 GB. ....

Just go for 64 bit and a normal pc wich will be less money than a mac.

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In MacOs 32bit mode you get access to 3gb of ram for each application, in Windows 32bit only 2Gb (sometimes less). The limit for 32bit system is 4gb: for some reason the system take a portion. In Windows this portion is bigger.

I understood this fact one day when someone lend me one PC for some renders, it was more powerfull than my Mac G5. The PC couldn't render, because of this technical limit. Both system where 32 bit. Cinema 4d.

32bit and 64bit applications can run on Mac Os at the same time. You don't need different installs. That is defined in the application before launch. To take the 64bit advantage the aplication must be compiled for 64bit, too. I think this duality is supported by the universal binary. One Os, the application defines the mode.

For Windows if you are running an 32bit application in a 64bit system and want to reach the limit of ram for the 32bit application (4gb), it must be compiled with: LARGEADDRESSAWARE flag. But you won't get more than 4gb, because is a limit of the application itself, that is 32bit. I know there are many 32bit applications that simply won't install on Windows 64.

Edited by Mr. Gog

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This is excellent stuff guys! So again another advantage in favor of OSX?!

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I know there are many 32bit applications that simply won't install on Windows 64.

OK, start naming them.

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Thank yoiu Mr.Gog

Still does not explain why it is different.

Could someone from NNA please inform us as to why VW is different on the different OS systems at the same bit rate and why it does not make full usage of RAM available??

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32bit and 64bit applications can run on Mac Os at the same time. You don't need different installs. That is defined in the application before launch.

Do you mean that when starting an application it first asks if you want to run in 64 or 32 bit mode (if it supports 64 of-course)?

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Thank yoiu Mr.Gog

Still does not explain why it is different.

Could someone from NNA please inform us as to why VW is different on the different OS systems at the same bit rate and why it does not make full usage of RAM available??

Vectorworks is intended to run on a variety of legacy operating systems and a wide range of legacy hardware on both the PC and Mac sides and is 32bit on all operating systems.

The primary benefit of more ram is that vectorworks does not have to compete for physical memory with other running processes.

Vectorworks could be compiled to take better advantage of Windows x64, but I don't believe that it is despite Windows x64 being more than four years old (and 64bit versions of windows dating back six years).

This is probably due to the fact that 64bit applications have only been possible on the Mac side for about 18 months (leopard)...pretty good for Apple compared to the twenty years it to develop a multi-button mouse.

Edited by brudgers

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Vectorworks could be compiled to take better advantage of Windows x64, but I don't believe that it is despite Windows x64 being more than four years old (and 64bit versions of windows dating back six years).

If only it was just as easy as recompiling...

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Yeah particularly on a Mac.

You've got issues like:

In addition to these function-level deletions, some entire Carbon and QuickTime technologies will not be supported in 64-bit applications.

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/64bitPorting/HighLevelAPIs/HighLevelAPIs.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001064-CH224-SW6

But then again, Apple's not really a software company.

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I know there are many 32bit applications that simply won't install on Windows 64.

OK, start naming them.

Sorry for the mistype: 32 bit aplications simply won't run on Windows 64 as 64bit application (as a 64 bit application they are limited by itself)

Thank yoiu Mr.Gog

Still does not explain why it is different.

Could someone from NNA please inform us as to why VW is different on the different OS systems at the same bit rate and why it does not make full usage of RAM available??

The difference is: when you have 32 bit architecture you have acces to 2^32 addresses this is 4gb. In 64 bit architecture this is 2^64, or 16 exabytes. This is practically unlimited, for now.

32bit and 64bit applications can run on Mac Os at the same time. You don't need different installs. That is defined in the application before launch.

Do you mean that when starting an application it first asks if you want to run in 64 or 32 bit mode (if it supports 64 of-course)?

It won't ask, you specify it before launch. Look attached image.

This is probably due to the fact that 64bit applications have only been possible on the Mac side for about 18 months (leopard)...pretty good for Apple compared to the twenty years it to develop a multi-button mouse.

I really don't know when became to life the first 64bit application for Mac, but the G5 was 64bit, and Tiger was able to run 64 bit applications. The G5 was out in the year 2003. Tiger was out in the year 2005.

This can give you some clues, about Apple and why his clients are more confident:

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/18909/

But then again, Apple's not really a software company.

LOL, I'm not worry about that. I'm not worry about Microsoft... I use what I want, like you. I don't want to use Microsoft products because I loose money.

LOL, let's leave this thread here.

LOL, sorry for my english.

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Sorry for the mistype: 32 bit aplications simply won't run on Windows 64 as 64bit application (as a 64 bit application they are limited by itself)

That's quite a bit of backtracking.

I really don't know when became to life the first 64bit application for Mac, but the G5 was 64bit, and Tiger was able to run 64 bit applications. The G5 was out in the year 2003. Tiger was out in the year 2005.

This can give you some clues, about Apple and why his clients are more confident:

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/18909/

The processors have 64bit instruction sets. Apple used the fact to market them. They just didn't get around to writing software to take advanatage of it for another four years.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/07/07/mac_os_x/

Given the mindset of Mac users it was perfect...plug in a chip, charge a premium, and don't provide a benefit.

Edited by brudgers

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Given the mindset of Mac users it was perfect...plug in a chip, charge a premium, and don't provide a benefit.

Our G5 workstation is 5yrs old now ... it has performed flawlessly ... running everything including Unix apps. and Apache server.

It was a great investment ... paid for itself many times over.

It is solidly expandable and the aluminum tower is a genuine work of art !

If the benefit of owning a premium product consisting of integrated hardware design with software implementation out weighs the upfront cost,

then Mac Users aren't so foolhardy after all.

In fact, we just purchased a new expensive iMac24 and expect similar stellar performance.

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Our G5 workstation is 5yrs old now ... it has performed flawlessly ... running everything including Unix apps. and Apache server.

It was a great investment ... paid for itself many times over.

It is solidly expandable and the aluminum tower is a genuine work of art !

If the benefit of owning a premium product consisting of integrated hardware design with software implementation out weighs the upfront cost,

then Mac Users aren't so foolhardy after all.

In fact, we just purchased a new expensive iMac24 and expect similar stellar performance.

My Toshiba Sattelite 1805-S203 is still in daily service. It was purchased new for $995 in September 2001.

For two and a half years I ran Windows Advanced Server on a $795 PII box with 384k RAM...continuously.

Lots of things last that long, even without paying a premium for marketing hype.

I suspect I've received a better ROI.

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My comments were referring to a positive experience with hardware and software, only.

I am not a marketing expert nor have any idea if your claims that Apple spends

significantly more on advertising than Toshiba or Microsoft are actually truthful or just petty.

In case you haven't noticed this is a Vectorworks forum for A&E Design Professionals.

Discussion of Apple vs PC marketing strategies of the last decade may be inappropriate.

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Sure. Questions arose about 64bit computing.

Then an absolutely and utterly false claim about Windows x64 was made. You know, the sort of thing that always gets a free pass.

As is natural in any discussion the futher question arose about why isn't Vectorworks 64bits.

In the course of my research it became obvious that there are enormous hurdles on the OSX side due to incompatability with both Carbon and Quicktime in addition to the normal issues like cleaning up the code for things like cast pointers, bit masks, &c.

I also noted that 64bit computing has only come to the Mac very recently.

To this there was a misleading reply that the G5 was 64bit. A quick google of "mac g5 advertising" provides ample evidence for the source of such misperceptions.

On a side note, while Apple products are often the result of a thoughtful industrial design process, they are only objet d' art in a duchampian sense...indeed Fountain comes to mind.

Edited by brudgers

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Dear Brudgers,

it's so beautiful to see you found the true sense of life.

The apostolic task of defending PCs. So profound, so enriching for us all.

It is almost a pity to see that you concentrate only on us such deep wisdom.

I think we all learned to appreciate the perfection of PCs. We all believe now firmly that Macs are bad. You convinced us. I think that we are now ready to let you go.

Gratefully,

orso.

MacOs X.5.6 - VW 14 SP3

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Before this deteriorates into a "my 64 bits are better than your 64 bits" thread, may I suggest that people check what 64 bits they are talking about. I wouldn't want people to confuse their 64 bit addressing with their 64 bit word lengths - each having different implications for an application.

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Dear Brudgers,

it's so beautiful to see you found the true sense of life.

The apostolic task of defending PCs. So profound, so enriching for us all.

It is almost a pity to see that you concentrate only on us such deep wisdom.

I think we all learned to appreciate the perfection of PCs. We all believe now firmly that Macs are bad. You convinced us. I think that we are now ready to let you go.

Gratefully,

orso.

MacOs X.5.6 - VW 14 SP3

If it saves just one life, then it's worth it.

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Before this deteriorates into a "my 64 bits are better than your 64 bits" thread, may I suggest that people check what 64 bits they are talking about. I wouldn't want people to confuse their 64 bit addressing with their 64 bit word lengths - each having different implications for an application.

I absolutely agree.

A 64bit address space allows the computer to easily address more than 4gigs of RAM. The G5 was one of the first consumer oriented chips to have this feature (giving the same prestige enjoyed by AMD's Athlon).

Of course to take advantage of that address space, the system architecture needs to be able to physically accomodate more than 4gigs of Ram. The most common G5 model, the G5 iMac, is limited to 2-2.5 gigs of Ram, and thus is unable to take advantage of the address space.

On the other hand by upgrading to Leopard, all those legacy machines are at last able to take advantage of 64 bit instructions (except for the operating kernal which is still 32 bit).

Given the current and historical limitations of OSX and the fact that Mac Pro's since the G5 and this year's Macbook Pro's and iMac's are the only models which can accomodate more than 4gigs of Ram, it is not really surprising that NNA has chosen not to improve Vectorworks via implimentation of 64 bit.

I'd go into similar limitations regarding Windows based PC's but over the last few years desktop hardware that cannot handle more than four gigs has become uncommon.

Edited by brudgers

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