Speaking of workarounds...

[mr. iagea]

Say, this is neat:

I decided to try out adding trim on a window using the "Interior Trim" and "Exterior Trim" in the OIP. I wanted to see how the exterior trim was going to come up against a very close wall in a remodel drawing I'm doing.

So, with my window selected in a normal wall, I click the "Exterior Trim". In the selection highlight, I see something get added, but it doesn't show up where I expect it (around the outside of the window, like exterior trim is supposed to). After fiddling around for a bit, which included clicking the "Interior Trim" checkbox, I discovered that clicking the "Interior Trim" makes the exterior trim appear on the selected window. And clicking the "Exterior Trim" checkbox makes the interior trim appear.

Incredulous that such a simple malfunction (that ended up costing me about 30 minutes of my time) was actually programmed into the software , I decided to see if it was my file (because of course, whenever there's a problem with the software, it's all my fault, according to the support feedback). Sure enough, in a fresh new file, after restarting my machine, and all that, I was able to duplicate the problem. Repeatedly.

So, in Vectorspeak, "Interior" means "Exterior" and "Exterior" means "Interior".

c

POST UPDATED:

I stand corrected. Apparently, the window in question was placed in the wall backwards (how that happened is beyond me, as there was no indication that that happened, and no way that I could see to fix it). My bad. I fixed it.

Still, it was a frustrating problem that seems to occur often in this software.

Mini-GRRR!

Edited December 5, 2008 by mr. iagea

[Ariel]

I'm excited to hear that Autodesk is soon to release Revit for the Mac. At least they know how to release software where the buttons actually perform the function they're meant to.

c

Interesting. Obviously, you haven't actually used Revit, have you?

Revit for the Mac --- from whom did you hear this bit of news?

[mr. iagea]

yes, it is interesting, isn't it? do you have any helpful comments about the window OIP and trim irregularities?

[Ariel]

Sorry, not at the moment. It was late at night when I replied so I didn't have time to check out your problem. Apparently, you were able to find the fix on your own. Good for you.

Now about the news you heard...

[J Lucas]

How is placing a window in a wall correctly a "frustrating" software problem?

[Pat Stanford]

VW considers the "Left" side of the wall (looking from the point you start drawing it, the point with the triangle) to be the Outside. If you get one going the wrong way, there is a Reverse Sides button in the Object Info Palette.

By default, windows go into a wall with the "Exterior" on the "Left" side of the wall, but you can reverse that by moving your mouse outside of the wall before doing the second click. This is probably what happened to you.

There is a very easy way to fix it. In the Object Info Palette every door and window has a FLIP button. Click that and windows will switch sides. Doors will give all four possible hinge positions.

It actually sounds much more like a frustrating lack of training problem rather than a software problem. Sorry to sound snarky, but my day is going nearly as bad a yours.

Favorite lines from tech support

That is an OPR8R Error (Say it out loud)

That is an Error BKC (Error between keyboard and chair)

Pat

[Chad McNeely]

Easy, Pat! While his rant is a little off base, there's a nugget of truth to it...

With 2008, when you make a symbol of a PIO and have just one trim selected, say Exterior, and you flip the door because you want outswing instead of inswing, for instance, the trim flips with the symbol/PIO (as I would expect), but the texture remains defined as though the door wasn't flipped (if you're lucky) or gets lost entirely, frequently. Several releases ago, I could just manually reassign the classes to the other trim to get the look needed, but then PIO's were given some additional "intelligence" to make them relate to the wall's exterior or interior face. Pity the chump (me) that always made my window and door PIO's into symbols before insertion!

Simply, there's been a longstanding disconnect between the interior/exterior textures set in the View tab of the Settings window, and the geometric size and location indicated in the OIP.

I haven't played with it in a new working file in '09 yet, but am hopeful based upon a simple test file...

[Jonathan Pickup]

i use Windoor for all my windows and doors. it lets you choose to swing the door inside or outside, without flipping the door. I know it's an extra expense that you shouldn't have to spend, but it is truly worth the extra money.

[mr. iagea]

Thanks for all the comments so far, and the helpful info from Pat. I actually knew about the Flip button in the OIP, and use it often for doors. I just didn't realize that the window had been placed in the wall backwards. It's easy to tell with doors, simply because of the door swing symbol. Less so with the window, and I was unaware that wall direction has an effect on which side is considered "Outside". It seems to me to be intuitive that when placing a window in a wall, it would by default be placed with exterior facing out and the interior facing in, especially when the wall is styled as an exterior wall. Call me crazy...

The trouble that I seem to run into a lot with Vectorworks is that clear explanations of how and why tools work are missing from the manuals. IMHO, that's what manuals are for; to explain how the software works, especially the more esoteric functions that are employed commonly by users regardless of their discipline.

Yes, perhaps it is a training issue, to a degree. There are few DECENT training manuals available (Jonathon, please resist here the urge to plug yourself! ;-). You do fine work.). I've been using complex software for a long time (Photoshop since Digital Darkroom days), and I have been teaching drawing classes (Freehand and Illustrator) at a local university for 10 years now, so I'm not a newcomer to software or the learning process. I get software very easily, if it is made well (as in, the interface is intuitive). I have never had as much difficulty gaining fluidity with an application as I have with Vectorworks.

I see the same issues in these forums a lot?users being flummoxed by interpretive difficulty with this software. In my educated opinion, that is NOT user error, nor should it be the onus of users to reformat their learning processes to accommodate an idiosyncratic application. Pioneering interface designers that helped put Apple Computer on the map have long-ago proved that theory.

The bugs I can deal with. All software has bugs. It the counter-intuitiveness that makes this software more difficult to get comfortable with, and that is what drives my eyeballs to fuming spirals when I just want to get my work done, and I find myself wasting time tracking down some solution to a problem that from an intuitive software standpoint, training aside, should never have happened at all.

So, pardon my early rant, but I do rather feel in good enough company in these forums. The problem is solved now. Thanks again, Pat for your explanation of wall direction. That is the kind of useful information for which I participate in these forums.

[Stan Rostas]

The issue here is simple, the only way to tell which way is left of right on many walls is if they are selected and one observes the arrow direction. If the wall is not selected most would have no idea as to which side is left or right for many Wall Styles.

One work around is to make it so all the Wall Styles you use have a color code for the left outside line of the wall. In our instance we use Navy Blue and most all the other lines of the Wall style are black. This way you have a strong visual feedback for the wall which Vectorworks is very deficient in with many of their Plug-in Objects that are sided in placement.

Even Doors and Windows can be guess work until some identifying element is created as to which is Left or Outside and which is Right or Inside.

Training is just a crutch of an argument for an application that is deficient this way and deficient in their Help system fully explaining the tools to new and beginner users.

We see many frustrations voiced similar to Mr. Iagea's with the designers in our office whom all have been trained continually.

After a few more years of use Mr. Iagea you will understand all the nuances of the Vectorworks Application.