Problem with "Use Symbol" for 3D rack equipment items

[SSvectorproblems]

Hello,

 

I am using Vectorworks 2024 with spotlight and ConnectCAD. I built a full schematic including devices i entered into the builder. Then I used the ConnectCAD "Create Equipment" function to build those into the 3D layout. I am using the ConnectCAD template.

 

However I am having issues when it comes to the "Use Symbol" function in the Object Info Panel for equipment. I basically have a library I am building, of pieces of equipment that includes images attached to each side of a 3D object. I then save that as a Object/plug-in. When I check the "Use Symbol" box, i get a dialogue box that allows me to chose a symbol. The default one is a system symbol named skt_R_Loop, when I change that to the 3D symbol that matches the device i want, the "Use Symbol" the symbol is used in the drawing, but the "Use Symbol" Checkbox becomes unchecked, and I can no longer change the symbol except by using undo. This is causing a major problem. It has to be a bug of some kind.

 

Often times it will actually make it so that anytime I select "Use Symbol" on any device it will do this bug and make the equipment a random symbol from my library with no way to select. I thought I rectified this by making sure my symbols were "plug-in" objects but the issue persists.

[SSvectorproblems]

Here is another example, I am going through old save iterations to see why this is happening as it basically completely ruins the project. This picture is before and after selecting "use symbol". It picks a random symbol to use, changes the make a model of that equipment item, and does not allow me to select any other symbols.

[spettitt]

Which Update of 2024 are you on?

[SSvectorproblems]

2024 Update 3.1

 

I just updated today before making this post and getting the same errors. Is this the correct way to go about getting 3D graphics quickly on 3d equipment? I know I can individually put pictures on each side of the equipment by just editing it but that is very tedious.

[spettitt]

I only have Update 2 on this machine, but 3.1 on my other machine.

 

On Update 2 at least, I think I might see what is going on, though I expect one of the VW team will be along to say for sure. I think the Equipment Item is looking to use a plain black-text vanilla symbol (such as those in the Vectorworks Entertainment library). If you take an equipment item, edit it, add stuff to it and then save it with 'Create Symbol', this actually saves an Equipment Item wrapped up in the 3D component of the symbol. If you then try to use this as the 'Use Symbol' of another equipment item, it's one inside another and appears to cause a problem.

 

If you edit the 3D component of one of your symbols (right click it in the Resource Manager - edit 3D component), I think you'll see it contains an entire Equipment Item inside, whether you saved it as a symbol (black text) or plugin object (red text).

 

To test this, create a new equipment item and point it at a given symbol from the VW library - i.e. the Audio Control L'Acoustics (misspelled - should be L-Acoustics!) LA12X. Note this is not an equipment item - it is a standard symbol with some geometry inside.

 

As a short term, you could convert the Equipment Item inside your saved symbols to just be geometry and not be an Equipment Item. I'd Ctrl-K to convert to group, then ungroup. That would leave you a 'dumb' version of whatever is there, which should be able to be shown with Use Symbol without issue, I expect.

 

Ideally, rather than the Use Symbol function, I think maybe what you need is something I've requested already - the ability to 'replace' an Equipment Item. Because your saved objects are full equipment items already with all the data, you really want to replace your drawn equipment item with the object from the library, not make it a child of your current item. The reason I requested it is for when you want to replace 48 ceiling speakers with another model, but don't want to go round each one and manually update the weight, power, size etc. But I think it would help this application as well - when you've got a default equipment item and want to swap it out for a pre-made equipment item in your library.

 

...but then...as I get to the end of writing this post, I can suddenly reproduce something similar to what you say above, which does look a bit like a bug, or at least undesireable behaviour. I'll test this file on 3.1 over the weekend and see what happens. I will submit a bug if needed.

- The last symbol I saved was as mentioned above - wrapping up an equipment item in the 3D component of a symbol.

- I launch the equipment item tool to place a new 8U rackmount object. I check in the tool preferences that 'Use Symbol' is NOT selected, so I'm inserting a default 8U equipment item, the same as if it were coming via Create Equipment.

- It places in to a rack fine. If I then click 'Use Symbol', it changes appearance to that of the last symbol I saved, but the checkbox exhibits the behaviour you mention above rather than looking how it should.

- I think it's trying to load the last symbol I saved, which was one with a nested equipment item, and therefore fails.

 

To get you going, the short term option mentioned above still fixes this.

Edited January 27 by spettitt

[SSvectorproblems]

This is super helpful, I can try doing this in the morning. You are correct that my symbols are actually devices when I open them up.

As for replace item, that doesnt seem super necessary to me at the moment since all that information should be saved in the device correct? My schematic has devices with all the correct information, just when I convert it to 3D i want it to be legit 3D models not just generic hollow shapes.

[Conrad Preen]

@SSvectorproblems Hello. Yes @spettitt is right. The purpose of the Use Symbol checkbox is to allow you to use an existing ordinary 3D symbol say one you snagged off a manufacturer's website as the graphics for your equipment item. If you have created a red symbol (convert-to-plugin-object) from your equipment item then all you need to do is drag that in from the Resource Manager directly. I will check on this problem and see if there's something we can do to alert you if you choose a red symbol. As for the socket symbol that you see that just happens to be the first in the document - we use symbols as building blocks quite a lot in ConnectCAD because it allows you to customise things.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Conrad

[SSvectorproblems]

This does seem the be problem. Converting these to symbols changes the text on the symbol to blue, which then removes this problem and allows me to convert my equipment to a 3d model with images.

Can you explain, or is there a resource that explains, what the colored texts means in the resource manager? I see the one I made that works as intended is blue, but the others are black, and the ones that dont work as intended is red. What is that refering to?

Also is this the right way to go about this? To clarify I want to build a schematic, with devices that dont exist in the stock options, then convert those to equipment so I can build 3D racks, and have it be connected to the schematic. But I need the equipment to appear as real equipment with front and back graphics. Now I am building a 3d model and saving that as a symbol. I think i was copying the equipment and building symbols with the equipment so it keeps the same exact rack size and shape.

[Pat Stanford]

Symbols with their name in Black are standard symbols.

 

Symbols with their name in Blue have the Symbol Option of Convert to Group checked. That allows the symbol to exist as a resource, but when it is placed in the drawing you will not get a symbol but rather a grouped copy of the objects in the symbol definition.  If there is only a single object in the SymDef you will get that object places in the drawing. If there is more than one object in the SymDef you will get a group containing the copy of all the objects.

 

Symbols with their name in Red are kind of a subset of Blue Symbols.  Red symbols contain a single Plug-in Object. When you place the symbol in the drawing the PIO is placed instead including all the setting of the PIO before it was converted to a symbol.  Red Symbols are also Object Styles. When you save an object style it creates a Red Symbol containing the settings for the object. This can be used either as the default style for a tool or to Replace a style of an object in the drawing.

 

Symbols with their name in Green are like Black symbols, but they are Page Based. This means that that symbol will display at the same size regardless of what scale the layer they are placed on is. This can be useful for objects like drawing labels and north arrows.

 

HTH

[spettitt]

2 hours ago, SSvectorproblems said:

Also is this the right way to go about this?

 

Basically, yes.

- Create your devices, with their physical attributes (HWD, Power, Weight) ideally.

- Create Equipment Items from your devices (Create Equipment command)

- For any equipment you didn't specify physical attributes for on the devices, change these on the matching Equipment Item now.

- For any Equipment Item you want to look more realistic and not just the default grey representation, tick 'use symbol' and point it towards the relevant black (or blue) symbol with the geometry in. Note that this does not 'convert' your equipment to a 3D model - it just 'uses' the appearance of the chosen symbol. Functionally, it's still a ConnectCAD Equipment Item.

 

IIRC there is a way for the Create Equipment to scan libraries and grab something other than the default 'Grey Box' equipment item, but I can't remember what it is. Have a search of this forum. I don't use it much as I don't have much decent 3D geometry of the equipment we use at the moment. I don't like the look of photos on equipment, and some of the rubbish CAD geometry that comes out of manufacturers isn't worth bothering with. I would love to use more of it, if it was decent solid models, when I get round to modelling more of it.

Edited February 16 by spettitt

[Conrad Preen]

Create Equipment can create equipment set to use the symbols we ship with Vectorworks if you check the box in the  dialog.

 

 

As Simon says CAD models from manufacturers tend to bloat your file with unnecessary detail.

 

Thanks @Pat Stanford for explaining the symbol colors for our new users - much appreciated.

 

C

[SSvectorproblems]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:08 AM, Conrad Preen said:

Create Equipment can create equipment set to use the symbols we ship with Vectorworks if you check the box in the  dialog.

 

 

As Simon says CAD models from manufacturers tend to bloat your file with unnecessary detail.

 

Thanks @Pat Stanford for explaining the symbol colors for our new users - much appreciated.

 

C

Not a single one of the items we use are in the vectorworks library. So I am building everything from scratch.

 

Turning the symbol objects into groups, so that they are no longer equipment items but more generic symbols seemed to work. I got halfway up one rack but ran into another bug. I have an equipment item i turned into a plug-in object the exact same way i did with the others, except this item shows up as its device like in the schematic view.

 

I am including screen shots. The bottom few devices I have done and they work as intended. The Rack fan unit is having problems. I select "use symbol" and you can see it is a 3 model just like the others, however as soon as I select it it turns into the device view and totally glitches out.

I just need to know, how are people showing 3d symbols of devices besides gray boxes? This makes sense for all other uses of VW but this process is totally buggy, complicated and time consuming. What am I doing wrong?

[Conrad Preen]

@SSvectorproblems By all means PM me the Vectorworks document and I'll take a look at it.

 

Conrad

[SSvectorproblems]

Hoping for a touch more help here. I have mostly solved the problem, but it introduced a new problem. This bug happens before AND after the recent 4.1 update.

I am working on a new rack elevation in the same project, using the same VWX file. I build a new schematic on a different sheet layer. I need to create equipment on a new 3d sheet layer for this rack elevation. (It is technically in a different building but systems are connected).

However when I do "create equipment" on these new devices, it automatically selects "use symbol" and picks a random symbol. Which messes up all of my carefully entered physical dimensions. Even when I deselect "use symbol" the dimensions of that symbol remain. I have 80 devices so this is a major choke point for progress this week. So essentially there is no way for the physical dimensions to carry over from devices, when they become equipment.

I even tried using the eyedropper, but it also changes the name and location, with no way to only copy physical dimensions. so now I have 80 devices all named the same one on top of the other.

[Conrad Preen]

@SSvectorproblems Please could you PM a file showing the problem.

 

I will investigate and see if I can reproduce the behaviour you describe.

 

Conrad

[Conrad Preen]

@SSvectorproblems I really would like see that file. At the moment all I have to go on is what you tell me. And it does raise some questions:

 

8 hours ago, SSvectorproblems said:

I build a new schematic on a different sheet layer.

Are you drawing your schematic on a sheet layer? not a design layer?

 

8 hours ago, SSvectorproblems said:

I need to create equipment on a new 3d sheet layer for this rack elevation

Again, not on a design layer? seems unlikely because sheet layers are fixed at 1:1 scale.

 

8 hours ago, SSvectorproblems said:

when I do "create equipment" on these new devices, it automatically selects "use symbol" and picks a random symbol

This strikes me as odd because software is pretty much deterministic. What appears to be random is usually not. Obviously the symbol chosen by the Create Equipment command is not the one you wanted but which symbol is it? Knowing this could help.

 

8 hours ago, SSvectorproblems said:

so now I have 80 devices all named the same one on top of the other

Does this mean that all your devices and their equipment items have the same name? That could seriously confuse ConnectCAD. Let me explain...

 

On a schematic it is sometimes useful to have parts of the same device in different places so that the signal flow is clearer. A classic case of this is patch panels (a.k.a jackfields). You wouldn't want a patch panel to be a single monolithic device with all the various connections snaking to and from it, because it would be impossible to understand the signal flow. The same thing is true to a lesser extent for other devices too.

 

So, in ConnectCAD if 2 schematic devices have the same Name parameter value they are taken as referring to the same real-world device.

 

Equipment Items are used on to-scale layout drawings to show the location and size of devices in the real world. Equipment Items also have a Name parameter which forms the link to the corresponding schematic devices. Equipment names should be unique. However ConnectCAD doesn't do a lot of enforcing - we believe that professional designers know what they are doing. Instead we provide the Check Drawing command that goes thru and lets you know if anything seems amiss.

 

Because often designers will want to create a schematic first and then worry about the layout, we have extra parameters in devices that carry physical device information (dimensions, power, weight) that actually belong to the equipment item. This lets Create Equipment automatically create equipment from devices. Once an Equipment Item exists for a device (same name) then the Equipment Item takes over command of these parameters and on the schematic they become read-only.

 

Now let's talk about symbols.

 

The Equipment Item by default draws a 3D box of the given dimensions (H,W,D) or a rack-mount box if this is set. To allow you to have richer graphics in your layout we have the Use Symbol option in the Object Info Palette that reveals a symbol picker control. Here you can select a 3D symbol of your choice to represent your Equipment Item. Obviously it would be a bit weird if there was a mismatch between the dimension parameters and the actual dimensions of the symbol. So, on the assumption that the symbol has the correct dimensions we set the dimension parameters to the bounding cube of the symbol.

 

If you regret the use of a symbol and uncheck the Use Symbol box the old values are not restored simply because they were not stored anywhere. So the symbol dimensions remain but become editable again. Perhaps that is a little unforgiving, but there is always Undo...

 

So to recap, correct naming is crucial to the function of ConnectCAD. It gives you the flexibility to assign more than one schematic device to the same equipment item. By not playing the role of "uniqueness policeman" ConnectCAD lets you use powerful duplicate-and-modify-rename workflows that leverage the patterns inherent in most systems.

 

Given the little information I have I may be completely off-track here. But I think the above explanation with be useful to others as well, so it is time well spent.

 

Best regards

 

Conrad

[SSvectorproblems]

Thanks conrad, sorry for some typos in here. These are all on DESIGN Layers, not sheet layers.

The devices are all named differently. But essentially I have a large number of cable boxes, media players, encoders, decoders, and managers going into a rack. I use numbering to ensure they are named differently. What happens is when I create equipment from the schematic, it checks the "Use Symbol" Box on all of those devices. It then selects basically the first symbol that I made in this project. So it is the same symbol everytime.

As you can maybe tell by now this just greatly slows down the process. And is causing me to do a lot of extra data entry. Basically I use the device builder to carefully enter in all this information. Then as soon as is becomes equipment all that work did nothing. UNDO button is not helpful in this case. That just undos creating the equipment.

It really is just as simple as I am not sure why "Use Symbol" Is automatically selected or how to avoid that.

Thank you for this note. So much of these little details about how features interact are extremely hard to get information on but having these quick responses has been very helpful

[spettitt]

1 hour ago, SSvectorproblems said:

Thanks conrad, sorry for some typos in here. These are all on DESIGN Layers, not sheet layers.

The devices are all named differently. But essentially I have a large number of cable boxes, media players, encoders, decoders, and managers going into a rack. I use numbering to ensure they are named differently. What happens is when I create equipment from the schematic, it checks the "Use Symbol" Box on all of those devices. It then selects basically the first symbol that I made in this project. So it is the same symbol everytime.

As you can maybe tell by now this just greatly slows down the process. And is causing me to do a lot of extra data entry. Basically I use the device builder to carefully enter in all this information. Then as soon as is becomes equipment all that work did nothing. UNDO button is not helpful in this case. That just undos creating the equipment.

It really is just as simple as I am not sure why "Use Symbol" Is automatically selected or how to avoid that.

Thank you for this note. So much of these little details about how features interact are extremely hard to get information on but having these quick responses has been very helpful

 

I think I might know what is going on.

 

If one were to manually insert an equipment item using the Equipment Item tool, there is a preferences button in the toolbar. Like most tools in Vectorworks, this sets the 'running' prefs for the object to be inserted. If you were to open this tool, click 'use symbol' and exit the tool without doing anything, that preference will be retained. If you then insert an equipment item with the equipment item tool, you'll notice it still tries to Use Symbol, as it is in the running preferences for the tool.

 

Now, it appears that running the Create Equipment command is using the some of the same routine in the background as using the Equipment Item tool. I've just set the Equipment Item tool running preferences to 'use symbol' with a random symbol, and upon using Create Equipment, everything does indeed create using that symbol.

 

Try launching the Equipment Item tool (ConnectCAD Layout Toolset), clicking the preferences icon in the toolbar and seeing if Use Symbol is turned on, and if so, turn it off and retry.