Site Model not affected by Site Modifiers Vectorworks 2023

[TeeMuki]

Hello,

im having a trouble modifying the site model in Vectorworks 2023. It doesn't work for me the same way, that it worked in the 2020 version that im more familiar with.

 

Settings:
Site Model: 2D Display - Proposed Only, 3D Display - Proposed Only
Site Modifier: Planar Pad - Apply To: Proposed

The Contours of the 2D Display aren't changing at all with those settings.

 

If i change the Site Model 2D Display to Existing and the Modifier Apply to Existing, its working. (changing the default green contours, that are existing ones)
If i keep the Site Model 2D Display at Proposed but change the Site Modifier Apply to Existing, its working (changing the default blue contours, that are the proposed ones)

With this way im losing the ability to study the changes in the existing and proposed Site Models, but this is the only way i get the Site Modifiers to apply to the Site model?

 

Changing the Site Modifier's Class to DTM - Modifiers doesn't make any difference.

But has the logic behind this tool changed, because wasn't it the basic foundation of this tool to work properly to use the Site Modifiers Apply to Proposed only? Or am i missing something now?

 

Thank you for the help.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@TeeMuki, Hi, the site model had a huge update in 2023, and it works a bit differently now - loads of improvements.

If you post the file here, I'll take a look at it. However, you might also want to look at this video about the new site modifiers (if you have VSS) https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/overview/view.php?id=5243

 

[TeeMuki]

Thank you Katarina for the help!
The video showcased well the new improvements and how to use them 🙂

 

[TeeMuki]

I have a few questions, if someone could help me with 🙂

I hope to find some efficient ways to work with the Site Models.

Question 1.

 

A have created a site model and now i want to make new contours to it.
How should i go forth?

-First i create a Grading Limits around the area that i will make changes to
-Then i tried two different solutions, but neither of them are not fully working the way i'm hoping to
 a) Using Site Modifier Open Edge Line Mode
-Site models contours are not following precisely my Open Edge Lines
 b) Using the Site Model - Edit Proposed Contours
-This takes alot of work, because i want to change only the contours inside the Grade Limits?

 

So if i have certain contours that i want to force into the Site Model, how can this be achieved?
 

Question 2.
 

If i have already made a Site Model and i have to extend the Site Model with new existing contours, how is this the best way to do it?
If i have the Site Models Source Data still at hand, i could ofc just make a new Site Model with the additional contours, but i'm hoping to find the most efficient way to do this...

From Site Models Object Info:
- Edit Existing Contours and copy in place the new additional contours?
- Recreate from Source Data and copy in place the new additional contours?

 

Question 3.

Do you have some tips to make the Site Model as light as possible to retain a fluent workflow?
I have a big site to work on and the Site Model is made out of 300 000 3D Loci-points and 100 000 3D Polylines.
I have been thinking to crop the Site Model into different partitions, but what would be the best way to stitch them together? By making defined stakes with certain elevations at the borders of the crops (using the Stake Tool as a Site Modifier object?)

 

Thank you for the help!
Best wishes

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

Hi, here's a link to a recording on how the new site modifiers work from 2023

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/overview/view.php?id=5243

 

As a basic:

2 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

A have created a site model and now i want to make new contours to it.
How should i go forth?

Use site modifiers - pad, aligned, path or open edge. Remember, you're not creating contours but editing the surface with these. The site model itself will make the contours.

If you have precise contours you want to have in the site model, then by all means, use the open edge modifier, but remember that the site model settings will determine at what intervals you will see contours. If there are some contours you want to adjust at the end, then go into the 'Edit proposed Contours', but this is not an efficient workflow to start with.

2 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

If i have already made a Site Model and i have to extend the Site Model with new existing contours, how is this the best way to do it?
If i have the Site Models Source Data still at hand, i could ofc just make a new Site Model with the additional contours, but i'm hoping to find the most efficient way to do this...

Select 'Recreate from Source Data' from the Object Info Palette. This takes you into the original data from which the site model is created. Here, add any extra data that you have. Make sure not to add to areas where you already have elevations. When this is done, you must go in and edit the crop as well - otherwise, you won't see the extended surface.

2 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

Do you have some tips to make the Site Model as light as possible to retain a fluent workflow?

That is a lot of data.

First - make sure the site model is aligned with the internal origin. This is a must. You can't do this by moving the site model - the source data must be in the right place to start with, and the site model must be created there. If it's already made in the wrong place, then use the Origin > Center Drawing on Internal Origin command.

Second - simplify the polylines in the site model data.

Reducing the number of loci before creating the site model would also be good - I don't know in what form you have the data, though, so I can't give specific suggestions.

There are other ways to reduce source data as well - let me know if this is not enough.

 

You can't stitch site models together, but you can divide the site into several pieces and work on each in a separate file. Then, in a project file, create Design layer viewports of them, and you'll be able to see the whole site in one go (however, you can't edit in the project file, only view).

You can also work on the parts in separate files and combine them all at the end (copy and paste or import layers with geometry, collect all the source data and create a new site model), but this is a bit involved, and it can be hard to retain the integrity of the data. Any manual copying and moving creates a considerable risk of manipulating something involuntarily.

 

[TeeMuki]

Thank you for your help Katarina, i appreciate it very much!
 

Quote

If you have precise contours you want to have in the site model, then by all means, use the open edge modifier, but remember that the site model settings will determine at what intervals you will see contours. If there are some contours you want to adjust at the end, then go into the 'Edit proposed Contours', but this is not an efficient workflow to start with.

 
Yes, this is what i meant. Sometimes in the early stage of the design it's just much easier and faster to do the surfaces elevations with contours. This is why i was hoping to find a efficient way to do this. So i will go on with my Open Edge Line Site Modifier testings. From what i have already studied with the Open Edge Line, the Site Model contours are not always following the Open Edge Line modifier. What could be the reason behind it? Does the Site Model do some toleranced smoothing of some kind when creating the Site Model?

 

Quote

First - make sure the site model is aligned with the internal origin. This is a must. You can't do this by moving the site model - the source data must be in the right place to start with, and the site model must be created there.

 

I have all my projects Georeferenced and also the Source Datas are in the right coordinates. I remember though that sometimes i have made a Site Model from the Source Data and the Site Model appears in a different location than the original Source Data. What could cause this? Might it be, that the Design Layer where i create my Site Model hasn't the Georeferenced -selection enabled in the "Edit Design Layer"?

 

Quote

There are other ways to reduce source data as well - let me know if this is not enough.

 

I would love to hear also the alternative ways to reduce the file size. I was wondering that would it be lighter to handle, if i first do a Site Model from the (300 000 units) 3D Loci-points and then copy the Site Models contours via Edit Existing Contours? Then Copy in place and create the Site Model from the copied contours and the 3D Polylines (100 000 lines) i've got from the surveyer? TLDR: Are contours (3D Polylines) lighter than 3D Loci points? Atleast there are fewer lines than single Loci points...

 

Quote

You can't stitch site models together, but you can divide the site into several pieces and work on each in a separate file. Then, in a project file, create Design layer viewports of them, and you'll be able to see the whole site in one go (however, you can't edit in the project file, only view).

 

If the different pieces are in different files, how or what would be the best way to guarantee that the Site Models of each file joins together accurate so that they generate a flawless Site Model when combined (for example into a IFC export). That's what i ment with the Stake Tool Site Modifier example, would that be a good way to make sure the Site Models joins together flawless on certain coordination points.

 

Thank you Katarina for your time and willingness to help me! 🙂

 

Best wishes

Edited August 4, 2023 by TeeMuki
fixing the dialect

[Zsombor]

Hello ,

if I can join this really interesting discussion, I'd have also a site modeling question: 

There's the opportunity to see cut and fill volumes with different colors in 3D view. It's really nice, but it would be much better to see it also in 2D top view. There's an option in site model settings/ graphic properties/ site analysis for that but I have no idea how to see the result. Could you please help me solving this issue?

[Jeff Prince]

16 minutes ago, Zsombor said:

Hello ,

if I can join this really interesting discussion, I'd have also a site modeling question: 

There's the opportunity to see cut and fill volumes with different colors in 3D view. It's really nice, but it would be much better to see it also in 2D top view. There's an option in site model settings/ graphic properties/ site analysis for that but I have no idea how to see the result. Could you please help me solving this issue?

 

I don't think it work like that anymore and hasn't for a long time apparently...

 

There are work arounds, depending on what and how you want to show it.

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

2 hours ago, Zsombor said:

There's the opportunity to see cut and fill volumes with different colors in 3D view. It's really nice, but it would be much better to see it also in 2D top view. There's an option in site model settings/ graphic properties/ site analysis for that but I have no idea how to see the result. Could you please help me solving this issue?

@Zsombor, Jeff is correct - this has been non-functional for a while now. I think they decided not to put effort into it while working on the new site modifiers - this will be rectified and improved. If you really want the C&F image in 2D today, there are a few workarounds (and I'm emphasizing that these are workarounds, temporary solutions). The first one (and the easiest) is to simply set the view to Top instead of Top plan - this way, you can use the 3D display 'Cut and Fill' view, but in '2D'.

If you also want contours, then it becomes a bit more involved. First, create the viewport as above. Then, return to your design layer, keep the view the same, but change to top plan and remove any fill of the site model. Create a new viewport and place it right over the first one. Now you have the contours as well. Also, turn off the 'Display viewport out-of-date borders.

My site model is green in 3D, but if you change it to white, it'll look even more like a standard top plan.

There are a few more things you can do, but try these first and see if this is enough 🙂

 

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

5 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

the Site Model contours are not always following the Open Edge Line modifier. What could be the reason behind it? Does the Site Model do some toleranced smoothing of some kind when creating the Site Model?

 @TeeMuki, Yes, that's correct. I'm unsure of the calculation, but it follows standard rules of where to place the contour. The more drastic the elevation change between each contour, the more aligned with the modifier.

 

5 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

I have all my projects Georeferenced and also the Source Datas are in the right coordinates. I remember though that sometimes i have made a Site Model from the Source Data and the Site Model appears in a different location than the original Source Data. What could cause this? Might it be, that the Design Layer where i create my Site Model hasn't the Georeferenced -selection enabled in the "Edit Design Layer"?

You must be in top plan view when creating the site model from source data; otherwise, it'll scoot away quite drastically. However, the issue with aligning the site model with the internal origin is more significant than that. If you're georeferencing your file, make sure that you also align the user origin with the Norting and Easting (and Lat/Long) before importing anything. Before importing anything, you must ensure the internal origin is aligned with your site. Let me know if you have any further questions on this.

5 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

I would love to hear also the alternative ways to reduce the file size.

Ok, so without knowing your source data format, this is how I would do it: I would use all your data and create the site model from it. Then, ungroup the site model in a 3D view and the 3D Style '3D Contours' and delete everything but the contours. You now have your site model data in 3D polygon form. This you can now simplify to the level you find acceptable and then convert this to 3D loci (Landmark > Survey Input > 3D Poly to 3D loci). When this is done, run a validation of the data (Landmark > Create Site Model > Validate 3D Data) to remove any loci duplication and create your site model from the results. If there are some contours you can't live without, then copy them back into the data before creating the model.

This is how I do it if I only have a LIDAR tile (typically one sq km, with 1,000 000 points).

I convert to 3D loci instead of 3D polygons because the site model runs better on loci - the Delone triangulations are simpler.

 

6 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

If the different pieces are in different files, how or what would be the best way to guarantee that the Site Models of each file joins together accurate so that they generate a flawless Site Model when combined

Again, this is quite involved. Let's say you have two pieces of site model, and you're first working on piece A. When done (or at least ready to move to the next part), lay a 3D polygon just inside the site model edge and send it to the surface. This will give you a next-to-perfect 'elevation marker' to copy to part B. When pasted on site model B (on Proposed, not Existing), put it in the Site-DTM-Modifier class. Hence, it becomes a site modifier (the class will be automatically created as soon as you've used any site modifier in the file - you can't create the class yourself).

The grade limits must be right on the cut of both models. You might have to extend the site model slightly on the connecting sides (but crop it so only the correct part is visible) to ensure the grade limit won't 'fall' from the surface.

Let me know if you need more info on this.

 

 

 

 

[Zsombor]

@Katarina Ollikainen, thank you for your help, I spent hours figuring out how to make this feature work. I hope that this will be really rectified, becouse I think it has much more meaning in a 2D layout than in 3D.

best regards

Zsombor Balogh

[TeeMuki]

Thank you Katarina again for your in-depth answer 🙂

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Yes, that's correct. I'm unsure of the calculation, but it follows standard rules of where to place the contour. The more drastic the elevation change between each contour, the more aligned with the modifier.

That is good to know!

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

You must be in top plan view when creating the site model from source data; otherwise, it'll scoot away quite drastically.

I did experiment with this, and yes the reason why the Site Model is created at different location as the Source Data is just as you said. In Top/Plan View its working completely fine!

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

However, the issue with aligning the site model with the internal origin is more significant than that. If you're georeferencing your file, make sure that you also align the user origin with the Norting and Easting (and Lat/Long) before importing anything. Before importing anything, you must ensure the internal origin is aligned with your site. Let me know if you have any further questions on this.

This is all clear for me, thank you 🙂

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Ok, so without knowing your source data format, this is how I would do it: I would use all your data and create the site model from it. Then, ungroup the site model in a 3D view and the 3D Style '3D Contours' and delete everything but the contours. You now have your site model data in 3D polygon form.

This is a nice one, and i will definitely add this to my workflow. I didn't know this was even possible. I'm used to do the Ungroup -action via Mouse2 button, but with a Site Model it's not offering that action there. It's only available at Modify -panel.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

I convert to 3D loci instead of 3D polygons because the site model runs better on loci - the Delone triangulations are simpler.

This was a very important keypoint for me. Thank you!
Is it possible to decimate the amount of Loci points? In some scenarios it's ok that the Site Model is not as accurate on some areas as in others. If i could take lets say 25% of the Loci points away from some areas, it would still make a huge difference on the whole amount of the Source Data. Or sometimes the surveyer has made the survey unnecessary dense and i just want to decimate the points by 50%. Is this possible in Vectorworks? In RhinoTerrain there is a Optimize/Decimate -option to do that.

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Again, this is quite involved. Let's say you have two pieces of site model, and you're first working on piece A. When done (or at least ready to move to the next part), lay a 3D polygon just inside the site model edge and send it to the surface. This will give you a next-to-perfect 'elevation marker' to copy to part B. When pasted on site model B (on Proposed, not Existing), put it in the Site-DTM-Modifier class. Hence, it becomes a site modifier (the class will be automatically created as soon as you've used any site modifier in the file - you can't create the class yourself).

The grade limits must be right on the cut of both models. You might have to extend the site model slightly on the connecting sides (but crop it so only the correct part is visible) to ensure the grade limit won't 'fall' from the surface.

Let me know if you need more info on this.

I haven't yet had the time to try this method, but i'm not completely sure what i should do on the bolded sentence.
-Is the 3D Polygon then working as a Open Edge Line -modifier kind of?
-I guess i should create a 3D Polygon at every Site Models border that join another Site Model?
-Does this mean that the Grade Limits should be perfectly on top of each other? And the 3D Polygon Site Modifier as little ass possible in the inside of the Grade Limits of the joining areas (Offset 0,1 cm?)?

 

This project is a bit complicated, as the different areas are between 20 000 to 40 000 m2 of size. And every area is combining with 2 or more areas... The best, most efficient and error-free way would be to produce this in just one file and in one Site Model. But i guess its getting too heavy with all the Modifiers, Hardscapes, Furnitures, Plants etc...

 

I'll get back to you when i have the time to experiment on this. But maybe some video to explain this in-depth would be nice from you 🙂

 

Thank you Katarina for your help again!

[Zsombor]

I got this message from Tech Support:

This issue has been reported as a bug recently and currently being investigated by our engineering team. Here is the bug number for your reference: VB-195594

 

 

[TeeMuki]

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Again, this is quite involved. Let's say you have two pieces of site model, and you're first working on piece A. When done (or at least ready to move to the next part), lay a 3D polygon just inside the site model edge and send it to the surface. This will give you a next-to-perfect 'elevation marker' to copy to part B. When pasted on site model B (on Proposed, not Existing), put it in the Site-DTM-Modifier class. Hence, it becomes a site modifier (the class will be automatically created as soon as you've used any site modifier in the file - you can't create the class yourself).

The grade limits must be right on the cut of both models. You might have to extend the site model slightly on the connecting sides (but crop it so only the correct part is visible) to ensure the grade limit won't 'fall' from the surface.

Let me know if you need more info on this.

Now i had a little time to test this on a small scale with 4 different Site Models, and its just working perfectly! Thank you Katarina 🙂❤️

 

On 8/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

The grade limits must be right on the cut of both models. You might have to extend the site model slightly on the connecting sides (but crop it so only the correct part is visible) to ensure the grade limit won't 'fall' from the surface.

Let me know if you need more info on this.

The Grade Limit was working a bit oddly though... The best outcome i had (smoothes joining of the different Site Models), if one Grade Limit was surrounding all the Site Models or even if i had it several meters outside the whole "combined" Site Model. So what did you mean with those bolded sentences?

[Amanda McDermott]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:52 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

When this is done, run a validation of the data (Landmark > Create Site Model > Validate 3D Data)

Hi - trying to follow this process and can't find 'Validate 3D data' as described... has it moved in vwx 24?