Wrap stripes along 3 dimensions

[atanasdyakov]

Hey vectorworks community!

I'm stuck with drawing up something which should be pretty straight forward but the end result doesn't look right, so hopefully someone on here will be able to help!
I need to curve some 3d latticework to form an alcove shape with curved corners and an open front (imagine a garden trellis alcove or a bird cage of some sort).
All is well as long as I curve my 3d slats along 1 plane but when it gets to curving them along 2 planes for the top corners the slats of my latticework get weirdly distorted - I'll try to explain with screenshots below:

1. This is the final model I need to end up with (apologies for blanking out parts of the image, work property that I can't share)


2. To achieve a cross pattern, I have drawn up the 3d alcove shapes in 2 layers (for the purpose of my query, let's just focus on one layer) and I have flat fold out drawings to the side


3. I have even divided the slats into sections corresponding to each of the alcove shape surfaces - sections marked in yellow will be straight, sections marked in blue will be curved along 1 plane (90 degrees bend), and sections marked in pinks will be curved along 2 planes (imagine curving along a quarter of a sphere) - the pink ones are where things go messy

4. This is the 3d structure of the outer layer of slats and the top corners which I'm struggling with... To start with, you will notice that there are 3 pieces of slats in each of the pink segments - the smallest piece bends well; the middle piece bends with a weird curve; and the third piece doesn't bend at all and shows an error.
If I bend the flat segment of slats at 90 degrees looking from the top, then I bend in at 90 degrees looking from the front, the long slats get a weird curve towards one end and vice versa - if I start bending from the front view then I bend again from the top view, the same weird curve appears towards the other end of the long slats. As I'd mentioned, I can't even get that far with the 3rd slat from the pink segment...


I also tried to create a nurbs surface of the alcove shape thinking that I can duplicate a striped pattern of 2d objects along the surface but to do that I need a single nurbs surface and I can't seem to achieve that (extracting surfaces from my 3d object means multiple surfaces and building a subdivision and converting to a nurbs surface results in the same).

I'm desperate as I've spent a full day trying to figure out how to draw this up and my project is getting late. I'd really appreciate if anyone could point me in the right direction!

Cheers,
Nas

[BartHays]

Cool problem,

 

I think you are on the right path with creating a NURBS surface. 

After you have the solid, extract the NURBS surfaces, you'll get 10 or so surfaces, then use Model>3D Power Pack>Stitch and Trim. This will make them one surface/solid.

 

Then I would use the Create Contours tool to slice the surface win the diagonal lines you can use for an Extrude Along Path.

The only trick I see is that the EAP is hard to get to lay the way you need to - this may render my whole solution useless. I haven't played with it enough.

 

Bart

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I would love to play with this, but I can't see what you a trying to make.  Can you post a picture of something similar that does not have the white out.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Figured out he steps, etc, for making a Lattice with NURBS curves, but don't really know what the final look is.  it is coarse, but can be refined.

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Had an epiphany over lunch, eaching waffles.  The method does not require NURBS curves.  Again, very coarse.

Construction Method

- A box frame

- Fillet tool

- Shell Tool

- Cut tool

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

If you want either of these files or both, I can post them

[atanasdyakov]

17 hours ago, BartHays said:

Cool problem,

 

I think you are on the right path with creating a NURBS surface. 

After you have the solid, extract the NURBS surfaces, you'll get 10 or so surfaces, then use Model>3D Power Pack>Stitch and Trim. This will make them one surface/solid.

 

Then I would use the Create Contours tool to slice the surface win the diagonal lines you can use for an Extrude Along Path.

The only trick I see is that the EAP is hard to get to lay the way you need to - this may render my whole solution useless. I haven't played with it enough.

 

Bart

 

Thanks very much Bart! I never knew about the "stitch and trim" option, I'll give it a bash and I might need to play with the deform tool to adjust the profile angles! That helps a lot, thank you!

 

2 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Had an epiphany over lunch, eaching waffles.  The method does not require NURBS curves.  Again, very coarse.

Construction Method

- A box frame

- Fillet tool

- Shell Tool

- Cut tool

 

Thank you buddy! That's also very close to what I'm trying to achieve (I need an open front, so just means cutting through half the depth of your model). The only issue here is that I'm trying to build this accurately as it will be produced in real life, so having the slats bend in horizontally on the sides won't be possible, think the natural angle would be 45 degrees pointing up and along the curve, then things get tricky around the top corners. You've got the right idea about the shape though, I couldn't find anything similar online, imagine some sort of a garden trellis pergola thing.

Cheers,
Nas

[atanasdyakov]

2 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

If you want either of these files or both, I can post them

That's very kind of you, I think I can manage to draw up your model though, so no need to send the files. I appreciate!

N

[BartHays]

Well, it is a slow weekend so I thought I would play some more with this, 

 

One of the keys, as you say above, is that it has to be buildable - so bending a solid makes sense,

But figuring out the bending planes is where it gets complicated. 

 

I think I figured out the proper way to define the bend plane. See attached:

Looking just at the Spherical radius, create a plane that cuts through the center of the sphere to one edge ( my RED plane)

in a front view, rotate the plan 45 degrees to match the angle your strips will run. (BLUE)

In a TOP View, rotate the plane (BLUE) to match wherever your strips intersect the sphere (GREEN plane)

This is your bending plane. 

I started with a fresh, unbent, strip, at a 45-degree angle and matched in position to where the strip starts to overlap the sphere.

 

It might take some more explaining, and I found problems where the strips converge as they wrap the sphere, (think longitude lines on the globe, 

But here is where I got before I had to make dinner :

Arbor.vwx

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

4 hours ago, atanasdyakov said:

I'm trying to build this accurately as it will be produced in real life

Thank you for the kind comments.  I was wondering....could you Photoshop out the parts you don't want to be shown.  This model is interesting, but I just don't know what it is.  If you can, or want too, I would like to see exactly what the object is

 

Regards....Paul

[line-weight]

This doesn't exactly answer your question, but this strikes me as the sort of thing where you could spend hours trying to model it accurately in 3d, only to find that when you get to the "making it" stage there's some small detail that means what you've drawn can't be done, or that there's a much easier method that would produce something not quite like what you've drawn but which would be perfectly acceptable.

 

In other words if it was me I'd consider skipping the 3d model stage - and the drawings I'd give the person who's going to make it would simply define the overall shape and dimensions, and an indication of how you'd like the lattice-work to look.

[atanasdyakov]

8 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Thank you for the kind comments.  I was wondering....could you Photoshop out the parts you don't want to be shown.  This model is interesting, but I just don't know what it is.  If you can, or want too, I would like to see exactly what the object is

 

Regards....Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks again for all your help! Essentially, this is a display stand for a fancy booze brand which will have summery, floral, fresh garden feel to it (at least that's the way I read into it by looking at the ref visual) - the design has been produced and approved by the brand's design team and forwarded to me in the form of a toolkit, so I'm to use the image as a reference and adapt it to different display spaces. For that reason, I need to draw up the 3D model and arrange it with other types of displays to curate a retail space, then draw up all the flat technical drawings and hand onto a production agency to build locally. I don't have a copy of their 3D model (which also doesn't look right because you can see how some of the slat profiles are getting very pointy around the top corners of the "cage", so I'm pretty sure that it's been done by one of those "fine art designers" who has developed the look and feel as a pretty picture not having any clue about how that would be built in real life) but yeah.. the image I've shown is the only one I have to work with. I've uploaded below with a bit more context if that helps?



Cheers,
Nas

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Nas

This is much clearer.  It is different than I thought.  The diamond pattern is not 45 degrees, but more elongated and the splines appear to travel in a upwards spiral as opposed to horizontal mesh similar to a fence mesh.   The hard part seems to be the prep work or laying out the points for the curve pattern.  

I am long retired and like to play with stuff like this.

The other fellow, (BarHays) is doing some good things also.

I wil have another look at it this morning.

 

regards....Paul

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Nax

I think this is fairly close.

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Short video

 

 

[atanasdyakov]

22 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Short video

 

 

Yeeeess! That's it, just need to fix the profiles when extruding along the curves, so they're all flat! How did you manage to get the curves sweeping around the alcove shape?

Thanks very much!

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Nas

Yes, noticed that also, so I fixed it.  See below  These spirals are flat.  I think I made these intersect, but they could also overlap each other as they probably would be if metal construction.

I can give you the model, but would you like the construction tools also so you could modify, etc.

 

[atanasdyakov]

15 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

HI Nas

Yes, noticed that also, so I fixed it.  See below  These spirals are flat.  I think I made these intersect, but they could also overlap each other as they probably would be if metal construction.

I can give you the model, but would you like the construction tools also so you could modify, etc.

 

Yes please, that would be amazing! And thanks again for all your help, hopefully I can return the favour one day!

N

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

The file enclosed (VW2018) has the curves and the model.  You will notice that I have two curves in green.  They are NURBS curve, but are straight.  You may want to fix them.

 

Once I had the curve structure in place, I duplicated the curves and dropped them to a length I thought was appropriate.  Then I lofted each pair to make them flat and shelled each one separately.  Then mirror.  If you really wanted to be on point, you could shell one set inside and one outside as I would think that is how a metal cage would work.

 

You

2 minutes ago, atanasdyakov said:

hopefully I can return the favour one day!

It only took a hour or so.  I would just like to see how you finally used it, etc.

 

kind regards.....Paul

LATTICE FORUM.vwx

[line-weight]

The model however doesn't show a true lattice - the slats don't lay on top of each other flat. At the top they do the exact opposite.

 

And it doesn't demonstrate a geometry that you could make in real life by bending straight strips.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

The model however doesn't show a true lattice

That it True.  I only used seven 3D locus per elevation to create the lattice, which is coarse.  It would need to double or triple up on points to dial it in. 

But, it is possible it may not ever be perfect.  Just a framework to be modified. 

 

It was the curve development that seemed to be more Important.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

7 hours ago, line-weight said:

At the top they do the exact opposite.

Didn't notice this last part.  Yes, I built this quickly, but if you have the curves, you could fix this easily.  That is why I supplied the curves.

 

Third and best Method.

If I was building this and it had to be printable is some fashion, I would only use the main Curves, a cross section and "Duplicate Along a Path".

I would give each cross section its own "Local Coordinate system".  This is not something found naturally in VW, it has to be incorporated into the cross sections.  Where the slats meet is where I would focus on the cross sections essentially forcing them to be in the same space.

This would take significantly more time to make the lattice.

 

[BartHays]

11 hours ago, line-weight said:

The model however doesn't show a true lattice - the slats don't lay on top of each other flat. At the top they do the exact opposite.

 

And it doesn't demonstrate a geometry that you could make in real life by bending straight strips.

Similar problem with my version, I just mirrored the slats so they intersect to get the "look"
But I thought, similar to how the OP started, bending a rectangular prism was more likely to make something "buildable" than extruding along spiraling curves, I just had to make sure you were only ever bending along one axis. 

 

If you created two shells offset by the thickness of your material and built the second set of slats off of the second shell it would be even better,

 

In the end, If I were in the shop, I'd throw all the drawings out and start prototyping. 😁

 

Bart

[atanasdyakov]

Don't ask me how - lots of trial and error and minor tweaks - I managed to get the shape! For the left corner I used the actual slats and the bending tool along all sorts of different directions bending at a combination of different planes and different angles as well (not always 90 degrees at a time, sometimes 60 degrees in one plane, then 30 degrees in a different plane, etc...). And for the right corner, in the favour of time, I just had to cheat and built a nurbs curve which visually looked good when looked from front/top/right views, then extruded the slat profile along it. It's not perfect and I won't be able to extract a fold out of this for my technical drawings but at least I can use the model in different projects and not having to photoshop that rubbish reference image I've been passed on!
As @line-weight said earlier, I'll just need to provide the overall shape dims, annotate that this is made of this and that material strips spaced at this and that distance and I'll let the production guys worry about it - in reality this will be very easily made but difficult to spec....






Cheers,
Nas

[TomKen]

Ok here is my go at the Trellis.  4 steps.

Trellis.vwx