Flipping window symbols

[Travis]

I refine a window for a project and need to use it more than once, so I make it into a symbol and place it multiple times in various walls.

My walls have three cavities showing framing, drywall and exterior sheathing/siding.

If I go in to modify the window symbol, it always "flips" so the exterior trim is on the drywall side of the wall. The only workaround I've found is to copy the window from the symbol, place it in a wall so I can flip it back the right way. Then copy the window, go back inside the symbol, paste the corrected window and delete the incorrect one.

So long as I don't modify any parameter of the window, the symbol works great. Any modification (say I duplicate the symbol to have one with & without masonry sill), will instantly cause the window to flip. Doors act the same way.

Any suggestions?

[mike m oz]

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the incorrect logic of the door and window PIO's.

By this I mean that the architectural convention is that when you draw doors and windows you view them from the outside. The door and window PIO's draw them from the inside - which is incorrect.

Try it - place a door PIO on the page without it being rotated in any way. The side facing you will be the inside. Add a left lite and it will be on the left as you look at it from the inside. In fact it is a right lite when you look at it from the outside.

I do recognise that it probably seems logical to the programmers because of the the counterclockwise angle convention. From a user's point of view it is not logical however.

In fact I am not aware of any other architectural CAD program that draws its doors and windows with the user looking from the inside.

Maybe if the logic was corrected the problem like Travis's would not occur

[Travis]

Perhaps Robert will catch this post. Is this something we can add to a bug- or perhaps wish list somewhere?

I've just discovered that even if I modify one of the classes used by the embedded PIO, the "flip" occurs. . .sometimes! Thankfully, we rarely change things around within a project once the window or door has been symbolized.

[mike m oz]

Also allied to this is the need for the OIP to show when a symbol or plug-in object has been flipped.

Inadvertantly flipping can have a significant affect on the appearance of glass when using RenderWorks. See earlier posting on this:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001280;p=1#000000

[ 02-16-2005, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: mike m oz ]

[Robert Anderson]

It's very difficult to ensure that you've placed a door in an "unflipped" state, since the tool that places doors and windows (and in fact all plugin objects) is very sensitive to your gesture. In short, what I'm saying is that -you and only you- determine the orientation of the door from your gestural input.

It is worth noting here that the "left" side of a wall as it is running is considered to be the "outside" of the wall (where that matters).

I looked at the earlier post (about rendering glass) and think that's a bug.

What's wrong with using a door swing as the indicator of flipping?

[Travis]

Robert,

I have no problem using the door swing as the indicator, but my issue is with the unexpected flipping taking place once placed inside a symbol.

Any observation on that point much appreciated.

[islandmon]

There's an easy work around for 'flip'symbols. I place a red line on the outside of the 2D hybrid for windows. This way I can tell instantly from Plan View whether or not the window is configured properly in 3D. For doors the 2D swing is all that's required.

[mike m oz]

Robert

The standard door PIO doesn't give you the options of selecting whether the door:

- opens in or out

- is left hand or right hand

Therefore sometimes you have no option but to flip the door. If the flip comes 'undone' when the symbol is edited this is a problem.

In relation to my isue with the rendering of glass in a flipped object this is a characteristic of RenderWorks and seems to relate to whether the symbol has been mirrored or not. Julian Carr advised me that it is to do with the direction of surface normal.

If the PIO doesn't provide the capability to provide objects as you want them you are forced into having to flip them and accept that the glass will render differently. Unfortunately the 'colour change' is not limited to transparent textures. It occurs on other textures as well.

If the issue of 'colour change' when an object is flipped can be solved this would be great, but I suspect this may not be easy to do.

The door swing does make it relatively easy to see when a door is flipped. With windows however there is no easy indicator. As you have alluded to it is very easy to inadvertantly flip (mirror) an object and therefore create rendering problems for yourself. Hence my request for an indicator in the OIP.

The easiest answer may be to add door swing direction and door handing options to the door object, and a flip indicator in the OIP. This will solve some of the problems.

[Robert Anderson]

The color change issue is a bug -- I have confirmed it with the RenderWorks lead engineer. I'll look into the spontaneous flipping issue inside symbol definitions and report back.