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Forget BIM for a moment, we need workable virtual 3D building modelling


Christiaan

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I want to put BIM aside for a moment and talk about 3D virtual building modelling, because the two invariably get discussed in the same breath and we often end up talking across purposes.

BIM is a powerful way to convey information. However what I've come to realise is that the more important thing for us at this point is how we produce that information in the first place. Whether we convey it using dynamic digital information or whether we convey it on paper with 2D drawings, what we need is a workable 3D virtual building model environment to produce that information from in the first place. Otherwise we're simply hanging onto the disadvantages of the 2D drawing board.

And I find it frustrating that some people are still pushing 2D hand drawing paradigms where they're not appropriate:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121867#Post121867

I want to be able to produce and derive all my documents/information from one source. I want to be able to quickly change an object and have it change throughout all my documents/information. I want our plans, sections, elevations and 3D model all to marry up without quadruple the effort on my part. I want to avoid beam and duct conflicts. I want to be able to predict more accurately what we can expect when we actually get on site and build the building. I want intelligent feedback; I want to be able to plug in the parameters for my site, such as building height limits, and I want the relevant part of model to turn red if I push the building up past that height. I want to be able to predict the thermal properties of the building with a visual interface. Et cetera. All of this needs a workable virtual 3D model.

Some may say we have this capability in VWA but I say it's not workable. General 3D modelling is not virtual building modelling. We need responsive intelligent objects that interact with the rest of the building intelligently and that avoid the need to model everything manually. We need a 3D interface that is as responsive as the 2D interface. We need an interface that understands what a building storey is. We need an interface that understands what gravity is. Et cetera.

And, at least until we move to a digital model-only environment, we need an interface that understands what various architectural documents are (elevations, details, etc.) and doesn't require us to manually cobble them together each time. I'm thinking the project map in ArchiCAD for example, or the ability to know how much detail to show at a certain scale.

The frustrating thing about all of this is that it only takes one kink in the toolkit to stop us from being able to work this way. Something as simple as a window tool that can't model the windows we always use, or can't display them properly in 2D. Or something as simple as the need to pause 10 seconds while you wait for a stair to recalculate because you dared to change a flight width. Or a column tool that needs a pilots licence to operate. These sorts of things make the virtual building concept unworkable in VWA.

It's so frustrating because once these hurdles are overcome the jump in productivity and enjoyment will be huge. And we can just see over the next hill but the end never seems to arrive.

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Interesting Christiaan :) but what's the point...you think we are hypercritical?

Not so, personally my 'irritation' (if it is that at all) derives not from your criticism of VW but more from the way you do it, often you (try to) show the deficiencies of VW by using examples from other apps. without (seemingly) considering what consequences this would have on VW and its current user base if implemented.

Of-course you tick people off when you say that other apps can do certain things that VW can't and then don't come with your views on how to implement it in VW.

To make a long story short, i think your posts are great, you seem to do a lot of evaluating over a wide range (most of which i think is valid with regards to VW), i just think you don't apply constructive criticism in such a way that it opens to discussions that can actually lead to solutions/implementation of said functions in VW, instead it often leads to a defensive attitude.

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Interesting Christiaan :) but what's the point...you think we are hypercritical?

He's using hypercritical to describe himself, but arguing that it's a good thing. And, for example, that it is Steve Job's hypocriticalness that has helped produce the kind of software Apple produces.

Not so, personally my 'irritation' (if it is that at all) derives not from your criticism of VW but more from the way you do it, often you (try to) show the deficiencies of VW by using examples from other apps.

Oh dear, how awful! Well what I find so useful about comparing is that it stops the naysayers in their tracks (i.e. those who dismiss things out of a lack of imagination). You really can't beat it. Basically it promotes understanding.

without (seemingly) considering what consequences this would have on VW and its current user base if implemented

This is another thing I have a problem with. Why should the past trump the needs of the future? I've been on Graphisoft's forum criticising the Mac interface of ArchiCAD (it's really just a shoe-horned Windows interface) and there are idiots there who defend it as if it's a good thing. Not surprisingly the people defending it are Windows users who were suggesting there were better things to do than to make ArchiCAD a good Mac citizen.

It's these types of people who have a lot to answer for in the world of software. The amount of money and aggravation they've cost the world must be astronomical.

Recently we ditched MS Word, Adobe InDesign and VW for producing admin and presentation documents and replaced them with the iWork suite. The increase in productivity and satisfaction has been huge. And it's all down to the fact that iWork apps don't have anything in them that someone hasn't said: "should this be here and is this the best place for it?"

The same cannot be said for the above apps or any CAD app I know of.

i just think you don't apply constructive criticism in such a way that it opens to discussions that can actually lead to solutions/implementation of said functions in VW, instead it often leads to a defensive attitude.

That's not my experience. NNA engineers are far more adult when it comes to taking criticism than (some) other users I find.

Furthermore, if that's your response then I don't think you've taken on board exactly what Siracusa is trying to point out:

It's impolite. It's unnecessarily obsessive. It's just a bummer. But the truth is, precious little in life gets fixed in the absence of a good understanding of what's wrong with it to begin with.
Edited by Christiaan
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dear, how awful! What I find so useful about comparing is that it stops the naysayers (i.e. those who dismiss things out of a lack of imagination) in their tracks.

Most of the naysayers i have come across have valid arguments though for their naying....

should the past trump the needs of the future?

Because the past has created the current user base......

just think you don't apply constructive criticism in such a way that it opens to discussions that can actually lead to solutions/implementation of said functions in VW, instead it often leads to a defensive attitude.

That's not my experience. NNA engineers are far more adult when it comes to taking criticism than other users I find.

I don't know who the engineers are or if they participate in this forum, but (i'm guessing they don't) most of us are users and our views are as important as those of the engineers so we basically can only discuss it from our perspective however, it would be great if the engineers (again assuming they are not) would take part in these discussions explaining the technical difficulties of (certain) issues.

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There are engineers who pop in once in a while, and on the email list, but I was talking about my experience talking to them in person. In my experience they're more than happy to gain understanding in any form it comes in and they certainly don't shy away from hash criticism. And of course they're well aware of the issues, but these same debates take place at NNA as well.

My point is, as with all CAD software on the market (and most software I know of), we need more hypercritical critiques, not less.

Because the past has created the current user base......

That's not a reason for letting the past trump the future. That's just a statement of why the current user base exists.

If the needs of the past trump the future than that's where we'll stay, in the past. I don't happen to think the needs of the past do actually trump those of the future when it comes to NNA and VW, but there are certainly users who would like to see it that way. No doubt about that.

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Because the past has created the current user base......

That's not a reason for letting the past trump the future. That's just a statement of why the current user base exists.

If the needs of the past trump the future than that's where we'll stay, in the past. I don't happen to think the needs of the past do actually trump those of the future when it comes to NNA and VW, but there are certainly users or would like to see it that way. No doubt about that.

Nope, I've worked with Bentley, AutoCAD, ArchiCAD and VW and i choose VW for the way it works, not because it is better (or cheaper) than the others, in my experience they are all fairly similar.....VW has developed into what it is because of the past!

I've also posted wishes that are helpful tools that i currently use/used in other apps, however some of the suggestions you come with ie. single file workgroup as opposed to multi-file reference setups are major implications that radically 'change' the way we(current user base) and VW works, it's (probably) not a simple add-on. I for one see the advantages of both but personally prefer Reference file setups.

Edited by Vincent C
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however some of the suggestions you come with ie. single file workgroup as opposed to multi-file reference setups are major implications that radically 'change' the way we(current user base) and VW works, it's (probably) not a simple add-on. I for one see the advantages of both but personally prefer Reference file setups.

Interesting you mention that one. That's the first example where I found it useful to compare to another app. When I initially suggested this heresy in the abstract I was told it wasn't workable; a pipe dream. To be able to point to somebody else that was already doing it was a boon.

Can NNA afford to develop their own intelligent solution? Who knows but I'm certainly not going to refrain from telling them I think they can't afford not to.

I wager that within ten years time the idea of using dumb file referencing for working in groups will be seen as an anachronism by the entire industry (a "what were we thinking" moment) and those still wed to it will be kicking themselves as those who aren't cruise on by.

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....anyway back to the issue at hand, some of the issues you put forward suggest a radical change to the way VW works....of-course this creates strong reactions from 'normal' users......and people saying "if you like AC so much why don't you change to that app instead" perhaps have more validity than you give credit for, because thats the beauty of it, that there actually are several apps that are fundamentally different and that there is a choice :) , the discussions of which is more or less superior are essentially uninteresting.

Edited by Vincent C
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Sorry to have to say this Vincent but i find a lot of valid points in what Christiaan says. i got a flea in my ear for moaning at NNA's lack of support for many things but it's nice to see you 2 at loggerheads as it brings out many of the problems i too see behind the VW face. (though where you both find the time to fill so many post only you know)

How we interface with it should not be changed too much but how it works and carries out our commands really needs a ride in any local blender before being returned with a little more than just few of the continuous stream of requests put to good use. Rewrite anyone?

VW is getting long in the tooth, definitely needs a few transplants and the bones are getting brittle.

Please don't give up on this thread guys, it's a continuous source of interest and enjoyment.

Thanx

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Just to end on a positive note for today, i think that in the 'future' we (architects, engineers, builders, product manufacturers etc.) will be working on the same 'virtual' file in a project, adding our elements simultaneously, while being able to see all other parts(construction, ventilation etc.) being edited/drafted in real time, everybody in different programs that fit their taste, all information available in every product ie windows/doors from Velux or Velfac with the manufacturer editing as soon as you have added their product.....etc. Utopia, i think not. What do you think Virtual Teamwork BIM!

So sure just now it's a hot debate, then, piece of cake - A virtual single file setup with Teamwork capabilities and background reference layout. :)

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Sorry to have to say this Vincent but i find a lot of valid points in what Christiaan says. i got a flea in my ear for moaning at NNA's lack of support for many things but it's nice to see you 2 at loggerheads as it brings out many of the problems i too see behind the VW face.

I like to play Devils Advocate sometimes.... :)

though where you both find the time to fill so many post only you know)

...because i work with a very good, effective, cheap CAD App :) :)

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you might find out that another App actually is developing into one that fits your purposes/taste better.

That's an even bigger pain. i've looked at doing just that with Solid Works and for me it just "Blows the Doors off" of everything else, VW included. But getting used to how to use it after years with VW is more of a fuss than staying with VW(at the moment). On top of that i'd have to "Struggle" with not only the SW interface, but windoze as well and that is still the most difficult thing to have to agree to.

No disrespect to MS users. :)

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What i meant Christiaan was the exact opposite, that that suggestion essentially doesn't have to be interpreted with any ill intent, you might find out that another App actually is developing into one that fits your purposes/taste better.

That's hugely disingenuous Vincent. Of course you don't really believe that I may not understand that other apps are different and might be better suited.

I've repeatedly stated that my criticisms are aimed at understanding and a better VW. In this context especially it's a joke to suggest comments such as "if you like AC so much why don't you change to that app instead" are actually meant without ill intent. It's just another way of saying "piss off."

Edited by Christiaan
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