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Forget BIM for a moment, we need workable virtual 3D building modelling


Christiaan

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I want to put BIM aside for a moment and talk about 3D virtual building modelling, because the two invariably get discussed in the same breath and we often end up talking across purposes.

BIM is a powerful way to convey information. However what I've come to realise is that the more important thing for us at this point is how we produce that information in the first place. Whether we convey it using dynamic digital information or whether we convey it on paper with 2D drawings, what we need is a workable 3D virtual building model environment to produce that information from in the first place. Otherwise we're simply hanging onto the disadvantages of the 2D drawing board.

And I find it frustrating that some people are still pushing 2D hand drawing paradigms where they're not appropriate:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121867#Post121867

I want to be able to produce and derive all my documents/information from one source. I want to be able to quickly change an object and have it change throughout all my documents/information. I want our plans, sections, elevations and 3D model all to marry up without quadruple the effort on my part. I want to avoid beam and duct conflicts. I want to be able to predict more accurately what we can expect when we actually get on site and build the building. I want intelligent feedback; I want to be able to plug in the parameters for my site, such as building height limits, and I want the relevant part of model to turn red if I push the building up past that height. I want to be able to predict the thermal properties of the building with a visual interface. Et cetera. All of this needs a workable virtual 3D model.

Some may say we have this capability in VWA but I say it's not workable. General 3D modelling is not virtual building modelling. We need responsive intelligent objects that interact with the rest of the building intelligently and that avoid the need to model everything manually. We need a 3D interface that is as responsive as the 2D interface. We need an interface that understands what a building storey is. We need an interface that understands what gravity is. Et cetera.

And, at least until we move to a digital model-only environment, we need an interface that understands what various architectural documents are (elevations, details, etc.) and doesn't require us to manually cobble them together each time. I'm thinking the project map in ArchiCAD for example, or the ability to know how much detail to show at a certain scale.

The frustrating thing about all of this is that it only takes one kink in the toolkit to stop us from being able to work this way. Something as simple as a window tool that can't model the windows we always use, or can't display them properly in 2D. Or something as simple as the need to pause 10 seconds while you wait for a stair to recalculate because you dared to change a flight width. Or a column tool that needs a pilots licence to operate. These sorts of things make the virtual building concept unworkable in VWA.

It's so frustrating because once these hurdles are overcome the jump in productivity and enjoyment will be huge. And we can just see over the next hill but the end never seems to arrive.

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That's hugely disingenuous Vincent. Of course you don't really believe that I may not understand that other apps are different and might be better suited.

I've repeatedly stated that my criticisms are aimed at understanding and a better VW. In this context especially it's a joke to suggest comments such as "if you like AC so much why don't you change to that app instead" are actually meant without ill intent. It's just another way of saying "piss off."

Of what i recall i believe it was, but remember it wasn't me who said it :) , like i said i like to play Devils Advocate sometimes.

In that function I was just trying to explain certain heated reactions to some of your posts by 'normal' users, i guess much of what you post here is mainly aimed at the engineers, a lot is over my head at least, but i firmly believe that because i am a normal user, my gut feeling is as important.

Edited by Vincent C
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I don't mind heated reactions (they often help get to the nub of an issue). I'm just saying that particular response is not valid. I'm disagreeing with you when you say "that suggestion ... doesn't have to be interpreted with any ill intent"

Edited by Christiaan
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working on the same 'virtual' file in a project, :)

Now that's a beaut! it's been mentioned before. One single file format. That really would simplify things . . . . . .

Doesn't specifically have to be one file format, just compatible. ie in Bentley and ArchiCAD you can just open a dwg file edit and save it as dwg again.......all PIO info is lost of-course....

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Doesn't specifically have to be one file format, just compatible. ie in Bentley and ArchiCAD you can just open a dwg file edit and save it as dwg again.......all PIO info is lost of-course....

Knew it was too good to be true . . . . . .

Edited by AndiACD
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Christiaan, you're no Steve Jobs.

And that's a compliment.

Haha, I was wondering when someone was going to comment on that implication.

Hi my name brudgers.

I've been Mac free for 15 years.

For all you new comers, the first step in MUA is to stop surrendering yourself to a higher power.

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Is it possible to have at least one thread on this user-supported forum that does not denigrate into this constant Mac -vs- PC diatribe? For the most part, these pointless digressions have no bearing on helping users get the most from Vectorworks, whichever platform they happen to use.

These snarky comments just keep making it harder and harder to find useful information on this forum.

Some people want to use a Mac, some want to use a Windows PC. If we can all learn to accept that the world will be a better place (or at least this small corner of it).

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Tim

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How come I was referenced to

Here's a must read for the likes of Ozzie, Vincent, and anyone else who would sooner see criticism snuffed out because it's "irritating":

http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits/2009/05/hypercritical.ars

Recommended read for NNA staff too.

I read it through and have never thought I would like to see criticism snuffed out because it is 'irritating'

Without venturing into a Mac versus Windows waste of time - how come the url link goes back to this Mac 'demigod' who is of no interest to me at all; but to you - well I wonder and my question within that wonder is why would you go there

Further - everyone very obviously does not think like you do or I do

I visited a couple of ArchiCAD forums over the last week or so to discover they are not just a happy little group of campers and also have their wish lists and wants as VWs users do and when you read their wishes it astounded me how in a sense their wishes were so similar to VW users but different

have a look at where some Revit users are at right now too

Surprised me a bit after reading your posts - I had become convinced ArchiCAD was going to save us all - sadly I discovered not so

What further surprised me after looking into it was it was not in fact AC with some of these wondrous tools but in fact a third party developer at times

In the computer world it seems we are right now in an embryonic stage surging quickly towards amazing things

I reckon quickly we will be using puters with beyond 64 bit capacity and ram that when we think back to today will blow our minds

Patience is a virtue

I remember 12 maybe 15 years ago I watched a documentary where a statement was made - soon if you have one of these about the size of a cigarette packet and someone else on the other side of the world has one you will be able to communicate - the hand held mobile phone - now after just that short period of time it is reality

My attitude - there is no panic - I do not have to spend endless hours in a forum suggesting this or demanding that - rather I just get on with my work and trust the dudes from NNA have already seen what you see and probably beyond what you see

Since VW 11 when I came on board I am more than happy

Also I was lucky when I was a kid as my mum introduced me to lucky dips and also explained to me I did not have to be SO demanding to gain attention

Do they really need your 'wisdom' - I doubt it

Would be good though if your office at least bought 2009 to PROVE your commitment

No excuses now - when the clutch drops the BS stops

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I read it through and have never thought I would like to see criticism snuffed out because it is 'irritating'

Whatever Ozzie, I?m just saying we need more criticism, not less. Those of you who are delicate little flowers can just choose to ignore my criticisms and suggestions if you like. Either that or you can convince NNA to have a big thread burning bonfire.

how come the url link goes back to this Mac 'demigod' who is of no interest to me at all; but to you - well I wonder and my question within that wonder is why would you go there

The point is that we need more criticism, not less. I didn?t think it was that subtle.

Further - everyone very obviously does not think like you do or I do

Okay, thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

I visited a couple of ArchiCAD forums over the last week ... Surprised me a bit after reading your posts - I had become convinced ArchiCAD was going to save us all - sadly I discovered not so

Since I?ve repeatedly pointed out that I don?t think ArchiCAD is a panacea I would say that?s your problem, not mine. Getting past your emotional reactions to my criticisms and suggestions is half your problem it seems to me.

Patience is a virtue

I remember 12 maybe 15 years ago I watched a documentary where a statement was made - soon if you have one of these about the size of a cigarette packet and someone else on the other side of the world has one you will be able to communicate - the hand held mobile phone - now after just that short period of time it is reality

My attitude - there is no panic - I do not have to spend endless hours in a forum suggesting this or demanding that - rather I just get on with my work and trust the dudes from NNA have already seen what you see and probably beyond what you see

I?m really pleased for you that this satisfies you. It?s not for me, sorry. Might I suggest you?d save even more time if you gave up trying to convince me that I should be more like you. My experience with feedback to NNA is very different from yours and has been very positive.

Some of us are happy to watch the world go by, some of us aren?t.

Would be good though if your office at least bought 2009 to PROVE your commitment

Er, right. This isn?t a religion for us Ozzie, it?s just a tool.

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I really wish I had the time or even inclination to comment further but I do not - fact is it just does not interest me

You have it all well in hand for me - thanks - I can rest easy assured Christiaan knows it all and will be there slugging away leading the way showing NNA what they need to do

No need to comment mate unless of course you are compelled

I have said to you before - Who you are screams so loudly in my ears I cannot hear a word you are saying

I will make no further comments within this thread

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