Jump to content
  • 0
Sign in to follow this  
Christiaan

Forget BIM for a moment, we need workable virtual 3D building modelling

Question

I want to put BIM aside for a moment and talk about 3D virtual building modelling, because the two invariably get discussed in the same breath and we often end up talking across purposes.

BIM is a powerful way to convey information. However what I've come to realise is that the more important thing for us at this point is how we produce that information in the first place. Whether we convey it using dynamic digital information or whether we convey it on paper with 2D drawings, what we need is a workable 3D virtual building model environment to produce that information from in the first place. Otherwise we're simply hanging onto the disadvantages of the 2D drawing board.

And I find it frustrating that some people are still pushing 2D hand drawing paradigms where they're not appropriate:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121867#Post121867

I want to be able to produce and derive all my documents/information from one source. I want to be able to quickly change an object and have it change throughout all my documents/information. I want our plans, sections, elevations and 3D model all to marry up without quadruple the effort on my part. I want to avoid beam and duct conflicts. I want to be able to predict more accurately what we can expect when we actually get on site and build the building. I want intelligent feedback; I want to be able to plug in the parameters for my site, such as building height limits, and I want the relevant part of model to turn red if I push the building up past that height. I want to be able to predict the thermal properties of the building with a visual interface. Et cetera. All of this needs a workable virtual 3D model.

Some may say we have this capability in VWA but I say it's not workable. General 3D modelling is not virtual building modelling. We need responsive intelligent objects that interact with the rest of the building intelligently and that avoid the need to model everything manually. We need a 3D interface that is as responsive as the 2D interface. We need an interface that understands what a building storey is. We need an interface that understands what gravity is. Et cetera.

And, at least until we move to a digital model-only environment, we need an interface that understands what various architectural documents are (elevations, details, etc.) and doesn't require us to manually cobble them together each time. I'm thinking the project map in ArchiCAD for example, or the ability to know how much detail to show at a certain scale.

The frustrating thing about all of this is that it only takes one kink in the toolkit to stop us from being able to work this way. Something as simple as a window tool that can't model the windows we always use, or can't display them properly in 2D. Or something as simple as the need to pause 10 seconds while you wait for a stair to recalculate because you dared to change a flight width. Or a column tool that needs a pilots licence to operate. These sorts of things make the virtual building concept unworkable in VWA.

It's so frustrating because once these hurdles are overcome the jump in productivity and enjoyment will be huge. And we can just see over the next hill but the end never seems to arrive.

Share this post


Link to post

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Excellent synopsis of where we are and the direction CAD modeling is going ...

all these capabilities already exist in the high-end of the aero-space-engineering market.. at a price no mere mortal can yet afford.

( My Nephew is an engineer for Boeing and modeling virtual designs is his specialty ).

Nevertheless, in the primitive world I currently occupy most everybody still uses Flat paper and even has a terrible time

accessing and viewing PDF plans on our Project Server.

Isometric viewing is difficult for most people, as well.

Interference Programming is not necessarily the same as virtual modeling either.

The idea that detailing is scale specific is wonderful & clever .. depending, of course, on who produces the stuff in the first place.

As it now stands I routinely produce 500% more information than is ever really utilized by Clients or contractors;

but it is necessary for my work ( a single reference note for a component specification may be based on hours of research and trial & error coding ).

Nobody likes to be constantly reminded that the simple plotted page is actually taken-off from a complex 3d model @ 19 decimal places

residing somewhere in my computer and all they are really seeing is a dumb 2d Hybrid rectangle of that fully modeled castellated beam.

Sooner or later someone must bear the cost of all this data input ...

currently it is the lowly CAD Monkey.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
all these capabilities already exist in the high-end of the aero-space-engineering market.. at a price no mere mortal can yet afford.

Actually, what I had in mind when mentioning all of these things was the current release of ArchiCAD.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I was hoping that the new version, with the Parasolids, would have the insanely great 3D solids that push and pull their surfaces and merge with other solids (as was shown in the Siemens video).

Not a big change with 3D editing so far in Vw2009, but I did notice that round objects, like spheres and cones, are much smoother in 3D views, without the faceted surfaces of the previous versions. And the round building columns look smoother in elevation view - they don't have those annoying vertical facet lines anymore. The rest of the new parasolid robustness is in 2D flatland.

Maybe we'll see those interactive 3D parasolids in the next version, when all of the plug-in objects get an overhaul.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I also thought VW2009 would have had more advanced 3D modeling tools similar to the Siemans video. The tools in the Power Pack section are cumbersome and outdated. Nemetschek needs to intergrate ALL Parasolid's tools in the VW2010 ie. 3D dimensions, modifying objects with altering the parametric 3D dimensions, push-pull including the filleted edges, etc., etc.

Chris, you beat me to the punch. I was thinking the exact same thing. If Nemetschek want's to make in-roads into the AutoCAD market, they have to target the structural engineering industry. I'm actually working for an engineering company in Australia and they're using AutoCAD and PDMS (Plant Design Management System). They do the 3D in PDMS and working drawings in AutoCAD. PDMS is extremely powerful and it can do structural work and advanced pipework and all the time keeping a live database, however it is extremely un-user friendly and it's extremely cumbersome and buggy. I look at what it can do and I know with VectorScript, these features/commands are possible in VW. Therefore I know if there was an Engineering module, Vectorworks would replace both the programs in this company. Nemetschek needs to hire a Structural and Civil Engineer, spend some resources in programming another module (say Vectorworks Structure) and attack the Engineering industry. Once the Engineering industry is won over, the battle over AutoCAD WILL become easier.

These should be 2 aspects of VW on top of Nemetschek's priority list.

That's my 2 cents, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
" designed by Architects for Architects"...LOL they forgot about everyone else and now they are way behind and may never catch up?

http://files.solidworks.com/AP/Solidworks2009/index.html?gclid=CIyN4s_P8ZkCFQIupAod0mmYQw

So their slogan is 'designed by architects for architects' and you think 'forgot' about everyone else? Seems like a conscious decision to me. So what exactly are they behind on with regard to architects?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Chris I agree and wonder about this incessant ArchiCAD can do this and do that

I wonder how all of it affects the good people at NNA - engineering away building VW 2010

Logically you would think they would be well aware of what ArchiCAD and other software can and cannot do and what they are going to implement into VW 2010

If VW 2010 is released in say October ? who knows ? what are we 6 months out?

Surely they would have their plans well in place

Wonder when the first betas are going to be released for testing?

So we will have to be patient

Also wonder when wishes here are too late for 2010 ? are we there yet?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
The frustrating thing about all of this is that it only takes one kink in the toolkit to stop us from being able to work this way. Something as simple as a window tool that can't model the windows we always use, or can't display them properly in 2D. Or something as simple as the need to pause 10 seconds while you wait for a stair to recalculate because you dared to change a flight width. Or a column tool that needs a pilots licence to operate. These sorts of things make the virtual building concept unworkable in VWA.

It's so frustrating because once these hurdles are overcome the jump in productivity and enjoyment will be huge. And we can just see over the next hill but the end never seems to arrive.

These frustrations are equally many in ArchiCAD, believe me, there are probably equally many frustrations in all the programs at the moment, there is no ultimate solution, though everyone is working hard to get there.

I have to agree with Ozzie and it has been said before, it's both irritating and not very constructive to constantly use ArchiCAD to prove VWs inadequacies. If there are good functions in other programs fine, but VW developers need to get there in their own way as they've been doing so far and that's why we collectively still use VW and haven't moved to ArchiCAD.

Edited by Vincent Cuclair

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Well quiet frankly I dont give a Rats A*** about architects that use Archicad they made their bed now lie in it...

You seem to have avoided my question Chris. What exactly do they need to catch up with? In an app that is designed to cater for architects, why do you think they should cater to others?

But I cant see VW improving unless you guys are dragged along screaming and kicking.

I'm curious. What are we holding up?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Ozzie, are you suggesting we just all STFU? Sorry, what's the problem with asking for capabilities from other apps? I'm interested in longer term than v2010.

What's great about being able to point to capabilities in another app is that you don't get the usual suspects telling you it can't be done and that everything is just dandy as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
These frustrations are equally many in ArchiCAD, believe me, there are probably equally many frustrations in all the programs at the moment, there is no ultimate solution, though everyone is working hard to get there.

Look, no where have I said ArchiCAD is some panacea. Why do you think my comments are some kind of all-or-nothing affair?

I have to agree with Ozzie and it has been said before, it's both irritating and not very constructive to constantly use ArchiCAD to prove VWs inadequacies. If there are good functions in other programs fine, but VW developers need to get there in their own way as they've been doing so far and that's why we collectively still use VW and haven't moved to ArchiCAD.

Wow, talk about sticking your head in the sand.

Would someone like to explain to me how I'm effecting VW developers? Do you think I'm hurting their feelings and they're putting their keyboards away? That's not my impression of the engineers I have meet. They're far more level-headed than that.

Edited by Christiaan

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

By the way it's worth pointing out that my main mention of ArchiCAD was in response to somebody suggesting that these types of capabilities are only available in high-end aero-space-engineering apps. This is precisely why it's good to be allowed to discuss other apps without being shut down by emotional blackmail (or worse, just plain censored).

In fact my exploration of other apps came about precisely because I keep being told some of my wishes aren't practical.

Furthermore, if you don't ask for something you can't expect to get it can you? And a large number of my wishlist items in the past week have come not from sticking my head in the sand but from exploring and discussing other approaches.

Check them out, and then tell me it's not worth discussing other apps:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121873

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121855

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121854

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121853

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121847

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121845

Edited by Christiaan

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Ozzie, are you suggesting we just all STFU?

No not all perhaps just one sometimes

But perhaps

I'm interested in longer term than v2010.

And that is why you guys are still on 2008

I asked you a question earlier in another thread you have not answered and I think to a degree it is at least relevant

How come Cadimage which I think is from NZ makes all the great ArchiCAD add ons and ArchiCAD does not?

Can you answer that?

In part you may then have part of your answer for lots of questions

Some smart people do incredible things with software capabilities where sometimes the software developers themselves do not

I was with a CAD Manager today who is exceptionally proficient in ArchiCAD in an environment over here probably quite similar to yours - 30K Au I think to switch from AutoCAD to ArchiCAD - I question the soundness of the investment for 5 or 6 seats but out of respect did not say that

ArchiCAD is not necessarily the answer immediately

The answer I think -----

About 18 months ago I was advised from someone I respect incredibly - stop bitching and just get on with it - in relation to VW

I took that advice on very seriously

Sometimes VW drives me nuts but as I use it most days it amazes me

So - because my choice is to just get on with it - I get my work done - in the end it is just a tool

Have a look at the plant tool from Cadimage - the way you can make Plant Symbols

But hey is that ArchiCAD or a smart third party developer

And do you think NNA would not be aware of that or do I have to start a new thread - I want VW to work like that - I think not - because in other areas with what I do VW is far superior

Thankfully I realise it is not up to me to make NNA stand up and take notice

Or for that matter change the world

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Using quotes like:

"There's currently nothing like ArchiCAD's TeamWork."

"ArchiCAD absolutely wipes the floor in this regard with a feature called Visual Compare."

you are suggesting it is a panacea.

when discussing some of ArchiCADs capabilities you are suggesting they are state of the art.....i work with AC12 daily and i know this is not true.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand... perhaps i have more faith in the VWs developers, in finding competitors strengths and introducing them into VWs when and how they see fit.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
No not all perhaps just one sometimes

LOL.

And that is why you guys are still on 2008

That's for financial reasons more than anything, but also for this reason:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116701#Post116701

I'd rather be on v2009, but hey, that's just me.

How come Cadimage which I think is from NZ makes all the great ArchiCAD add ons and ArchiCAD does not?

Can you answer that?

Nope, but I'm puzzled to the relevance?

About 18 months ago I was advised from someone I respect incredibly - stop bitching and just get on with it - in relation to VW ... I took that advice on very seriously ... So - because my choice is to just get on with it - I get my work done

Er, I get my work done too. And discussing and understanding the limitations and potentials of the tool helps me plan my work. Furthermore NNA are great listeners and many of the specific things I've asked for have been implemented over the years. If you have no opinions to contribute that's your prerogative.

Anyway, shouldn't you be getting your work done....

Have a look at the plant tool from Cadimage - the way you can make Plant Symbols ... But hey is that ArchiCAD or a smart third party developer

Okay, you've really lost me here.

And do you think NNA would not be aware of that or do I have to start a new thread

You're in cuckoo land if you think these same debates don't take place inside NNA. Sure they're aware but this is one outlet for gauging the opinions of their customers and planning ahead. NNA people read these forums and email lists and I've had similar discussions with them in person. If you don't ask you won't get.

... because in other areas with what I do VW is far superior

I know. Where does this assumption come from that praising capabilities in one app means you think other apps are crap?

Thankfully I realise it is not up to me to make NNA stand up and take notice

Or for that matter change the world

Sure, well, I'm not like you and I never will be. If that irritates people they can **** off.

Edited by Christiaan

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Vincent, you need to look up the word panacea. It means a solution for *all difficulties*. I've never suggested this about ArchiCAD for a minute. All I've done is pointed to specific concepts and capabilities that I'd like to see in VW. Sorry if this hurts people's feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Are you for real? When I get a VW or Revit file given to me its given back as a structural Model, Data or whatever in the native file format.

Where's the collaboration when a AC file is returned as a DWG file (Engineers dont use AC)? Which genius architect devised that process... where's the BIM there?

I?m baffled but I?m definitely real, yes. Sorry, are you saying you own Revit and Vectorworks and you provide structural models in these formats?

I guess this reply follows on from above...Progress and a processs more akin to Mechanical BIM and Solidworks 2009.

I dont want Archicads BIM

Why does the way ArchiCAD work matter to you if you?re not using it? Surely it?s input and output that matters, whereby we?re all moving to IFC as I understand it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

"How come Cadimage which I think is from NZ makes all the great ArchiCAD add ons and ArchiCAD does not?"

"Nope, but I'm puzzled to the relevance?"

The relevance may be on the financial end. The Cadimage package costs almost as much as vWorks.

It's good to have discussions about all the things software should be able to do. It's interesting to think about how much all that development will cost, and what price future users will be willing to pay to cover that.

How smart can an object be? I think it can be as smart as the market can bear.

In the future, if I can afford it, perhaps I'll buy a software package that has enough intelligence that I won't even need an architect! :-)

I hate 'smileys', but I want you to know that I'm not disputing, arguing or trying to do much of anything other than sharing something I've been thinking about while reading Christian's wish list, and I'm hoping he won't take me apart with one of those multi-quote rebuttals he's perfected...(not that he'd need it)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
"Forget about BIM,we need workable virtual 3D building modelling",

and I said have a look at solidworks 2009.I dont care much for autodesk and revit and I care even less about archicad.

So do your homework.

Thats it

So you're not going to answer my questions above?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Nemetschek needs to hire a Structural and Civil Engineer, spend some resources in programming another module . . . . .

And a Mechanical Engineer!!

:)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
I was hoping that the new version, with the Parasolids, would have the insanely great 3D solids that push and pull their surfaces and merge with other solids (as was shown in the Siemens video).

Yeah, me too!!

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Well quiet frankly I dont give a Rats A*** about architects that use Archicad they made their bed now lie in it...

You seem to have avoided my question Chris. What exactly do they need to catch up with? In an app that is designed to cater for architects, why do you think they should cater to others?

Because "others" like me are still helping to fund VW like you and yours Vincent. If VW were designed and built correctly it would enable all to work productively, whatever field they work in.

There's still too many kinks

Edited by AndiACD

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Well quiet frankly I dont give a Rats A*** about architects that use Archicad they made their bed now lie in it...

You seem to have avoided my question Chris. What exactly do they need to catch up with? In an app that is designed to cater for architects, why do you think they should cater to others?

Because "others" like me are still helping to fund VW like you and yours Vincent. If VW were designed and built correctly it would enable all to work productively, whatever field they work in.

There's still too many kinks

The question was to do with ArchiCAD Andi, not VW. ArchiCAD specifically caters to architects. I was trying to figure why Chris thought they should cater to others if their business is to cater to architects.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Right, so back to my earlier (ignored) question: Why does the way ArchiCAD work matter to you if you?re not using it? Surely it?s input and output that matters, whereby we?re all moving to IFC as I understand it?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
If you are talking about input and output of data, then NO, math,optimization and analysis drives most of my work thesedays.

I don't quite know what we're talking about Chris. Straight answers don't appear to be your forte.

1. You said ArchiCAD "forgot about everyone else and now they are way behind and may never catch up"

2. I asked what exactly they behind on with regard to architects?

3. You responded that you don't care about ArchiCAD, passed off some obscure prediction about engineers moving from ArchiCAD to Revit or Bentley, and then turned to VW, suggesting that architects are holding back its development.

4. I ask my question about ArchiCAD again, and for further clarification of this idea that architects are holding back development of VW.

5. Now you ask me if I'm for real, make some more obscure comments about the transfer of native file formats of VW and Revit. And then finally you come out with a straight response: basically that all AEC apps should work like Solidworks 2009.

So, correct if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that, as an engineer, you know the one right way to work and everyone else should work this way so that we're all working the same way as the one right way that you know to work.

From what I can tell you're conflating "processes" with compatibility. You seem to think that compatibility will only come about by all AEC apps working the same way.

Sounds like a horrible idea to me. I'd rather we had many different ways to work, all catering to the special needs of different sectors and attain compatibility through a common intelligent file format.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×
×
  • Create New...