External referencing possible?

[arcadio]

Hi,

I'm not a Vectorworks user and don't know the program but I'm looking for a CAD program to use in the future. I know Autocad, Allplan, Archicad and all their pros and against....

Vectorworks looks smart at the first glance, but I cant' find a complete feature list on the web, just the typical "what's new...?" things, so I can't judge if VW satisfies a very important feature for me or not.

My principal question is: Does VW have an External Referencing-Instancing system (like Autocad) which allows to edit a 3d module of a house which is repeated 20 times in the site, for example, and then it updates all of them at the same time?

Can I open various projects and copy-paste elements between them?

I appreciate any help to answer these questions or a link to manuals to be able search by myself.

Thank you,

Andras Nagyivanyi

www.arcadiatd.com

[mralistair]

extrernal references are managed in 'workgroup references' but it sounds like that would be better managed with symbols and libraries. (shich can also be referenced from an external source.

it took me a while to find this as well when i was new to VW.

[Robert Anderson]

Arcadio, VW has several referencing systems including;

1. Workgroup referencing, which allows you to reference a layer in an external document and update it (from that original) at user-specified intervals;

2. Layer Linking, which allows you to (within a document) treat the contents of a layer (either local or referenced) as a repeatable, symbol-like object;

Sounds like for your purpose you would most efficiently use a combination of these two methods. As mralistair notes, VW has more common symbols and libraries also.

[Petri]

Robert is spot on. Unlike, say, AutoCADs XREFs, a VW workgroup reference is placed only once, then let to multiply and fill the "assembly" through other mechanisms, of which layer linking is, I believe, the most appropriate for the described purpose.

If The House happens to be a multi-storey one, there needs to be link for each level; links are grouped and multiplied as a group.

[arcadio]

Thanks guys....

So, the solution is a kind of combination of workgroup referencing, layer linking and symbols....

Ok, to tell the truth, using an external file is not so important for me - I usually use them because it's much easier to view and modify a small part of the building and later assembly them in a master file than continuosly switching on-off layers on a big building just to be able to concentrate on the part you are working on.

If I can do this with VW, that's ok whatever it's called symbol o layer linking....

So the next question is, can I edit these "symbols-layers-references" in separate windows? I mean, in autocad you can open several documents at the same time without the need to close the main document, you can edit the parts and watching how the whole model is updating.

Please, say that is possible...

Thanks,

andras

[Christiaan]

I mean, in autocad you can open several documents at the same time without the need to close the main document, you can edit the parts and watching how the whole model is updating.

Please, say that is possible...

Unfortunately it's not. It's on the wishlist though:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=74342

[arcadio]

I forgot one thing:

Nested symbols, layers etc are possible?

Andras

[Petri]

Fortunately it's not. Well, partly it is (exactly to the degree we want).

Non-managed changes to the overall model (including references) are highly undesirable. If anything, we would need an authorization scheme: before the project manager has approved changes, they won't be incorporated to the Consolidated Model nor be reflected in any design files using the component in question through WGR.

Would I want to work in an environment where walls, doors, windows, furniture, joinery etc. would constantly change as other people are refining their design? Absolutely not.

When I come to work in the morning, I expect walls etc to be where I left them, not somewhere else. If they need to be moved, so be it - but only after a meeting or whatever.

(Re Christiaan's last post.)

Edited February 15, 2007 by Petri

[Petri]

I forgot one thing:

Nested symbols, layers etc are possible?

Andras

Nested symbols, yes. Nested layers? I don't think so. What does that mean?

VW has Layers ("where") and Classes ("what").

[arcadio]

About "nested layers" - Ok, I'm not familiar with VW terminology...

I suppose I should've called them nested workgroup references.

About several projects opened at the same time:

No problem, I work alone. May be you are emphasizing on the question of permissions. So still with the doubt: Can I open several VW windows at the same time with different drawings not referenced with each other? (For example in Autocad, Photoshop is possible. In 3DMAX or in Archicad is impossible.)

Andras

[P Retondo]

I mean, in autocad you can open several documents at the same time without the need to close the main document, you can edit the parts and watching how the whole model is updating.

Please, say that is possible...

Unfortunately it's not. It's on the wishlist though:

Christiaan, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to edit and save a file that is referenced, and without closing it update the referenced layers in the "container" file with both files open. In AutoCAD, you also have to manually update after modifying an xref, so I believe it's not substantially different with VectorWorks. With both programs, xrefs and WGRs are automatically updated when the container file is opened.

And, of course, if your symbols and layer links are all internal to the main file, when they are edited the changes automatically and immediately propagate to all instances.

I don't believe it's possible to have a chain of WGRs. I don't know why that couldn't be added to the WGR capability, but it just isn't there. WGR is by layer, and layers referenced from a third file don't appear in the layer list.

[Christiaan]

Yes it seems I wrongly assumed AutoCAD was capable of saving in the other direction too. See this thread for what I'm actually after:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=74342

[Petri]

So still with the doubt: Can I open several VW windows at the same time with different drawings not referenced with each other? (For example in Autocad, Photoshop is possible. In 3DMAX or in Archicad is impossible.)

Yes, you can. There is a limit for opened files (8?), but those can be any. In copying & pasting between them, the receiving file determines the representation and location.

If the item you paste has classes, hatches, symbols, gradients, textures or database definitions not present in the receptor, the details will be incorporated as they are in the source.

[arcadio]

Thank for the answers, everything is a bit clearer now.

I will try to download a demo from Nemetschek Spain to check all these issues, though I suppose it will be save-disabled and will not allow to check the update function....

Thanks again,

Andras