"Catalog" objects - very confusing

[line-weight]

11 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I'm not sure it's possible to have a single Velfac style for multiple different windows anyway is it? Aren't you committed to duplicating the default catalog style + creating your own styles with different settings? Otherwise every window would be by instance? Aren't they just templates from which to create your own styles?

 

If you make the changes I suggested above, then in theory you can have multiple windows all with the same "velfac" style yes.

 

I went back to look at how a kitchen cabinet style works (the Howdens one previously discussed here) and that's sort of how that is set up by default: you can make multiple instances of the style and then each one can be a different cabinet size, using the "select form catalog" button. (Although, for whatever reason, they provide a different style for each cabinet type; ie there's one style for basic units, one for corner units, etc etc).

 

For my own purposes, I'm departing entirely from any attempt to use the "catalog" system for windows. And the kitchen cabinet ones are drawn incorrectly. Just trying to understand how they are intended to be used really. Maybe one day a catalog type style will be provided that's actually usable. Who knows.

[Tom W.]

2 minutes ago, line-weight said:

If you make the changes I suggested above, then in theory you can have multiple windows all with the same "velfac" style yes.

 

But would width + height be by instance in every case or could you have a 900x900 style, a 300x1200 style, etc?

 

I appreciate you taking the time to look at all this! To be honest I forgot the catalogs were there. I think I looked at them 2-3 years ago + used them to create my own Velfac + Jeld-Wen window styles then never looked at them again... Glad to hear it sounds like I'm not missing anything 😁

[line-weight]

20 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

But would width + height be by instance in every case or could you have a 900x900 style, a 300x1200 style, etc?

 

I think you'd basically have to choose between having a universal style with size set by instance, or creating additional styles for set sizes. Or have a large number of catalog items that cover all the possible combinations.

 

This is already an issue for window styles (ignoring anything about catalogs) - for big projects when you might have overlapping repeating parameters. It's a bit analagous to the thing with wall styles (where you easily end up with loads of slightly different styles to cope with various combinations of exterior & interior finishes).

[Matt Panzer]

6 hours ago, line-weight said:

7 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

But would width + height be by instance in every case or could you have a 900x900 style, a 300x1200 style, etc?

 

I think you'd basically have to choose between having a universal style with size set by instance, or creating additional styles for set sizes. Or have a large number of catalog items that cover all the possible combinations.

 

This is already an issue for window styles (ignoring anything about catalogs) - for big projects when you might have overlapping repeating parameters. It's a bit analagous to the thing with wall styles (where you easily end up with loads of slightly different styles to cope with various combinations of exterior & interior finishes).

 

The reason our content locks the catalog item By Style is because you'd typically want each catalog item to be a separate style for reports and or legends.  So locking the item encourages users to duplicate the style for different items before they place a bunch and use the same style for many different catalog items (which can result in a management headache later).

[line-weight]

5 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

The reason our content locks the catalog item By Style is because you'd typically want each catalog item to be a separate style for reports and or legends.  So locking the item encourages users to duplicate the style for different items before they place a bunch and use the same style for many different catalog items (which can result in a management headache later).

 

Hm, well, this I'd say confirms my view expressed earlier that the setup is convenient for the content suppliers but not for the end user.

 

If that's the usage that's envisaged, then each catalogue item really ought to be provided as a style, that or the process of converting a catalog item into a style should be more clearly signposted.

 

A reasonable or intuitive workflow would be: choose a catalogue item >> create style from catalogue item.

 

Instead it's

1. Choose a library window style

2. Import the style

3. Duplicate the style

4. Place a window with the duplicated style

(5. Wonder why it's not possible to choose your catalog variant using the greyed out "select from catalog" button)

6. Go to style edit dialogue

(7. Wonder where you are supposed to be able to choose the catalog item, until you figure out you have to click on the unlabelled book item)

8. Unlock the height & width parameters so they can be "by instance" *

9. Rename & save that style.

 

*if the intention is that a different style is saved for each size of window, then this seems a misuse of the style concept, because aren't we then effectively just talking about a symbol? A symbol is where all instances are the same, a style is where all instances have things in common but only some things.

 

 

[Matt Panzer]

On 3/31/2023 at 6:59 PM, line-weight said:

*if the intention is that a different style is saved for each size of window, then this seems a misuse of the style concept, because aren't we then effectively just talking about a symbol? A symbol is where all instances are the same, a style is where all instances have things in common but only some things.

 

PIO Style catalogs are not like symbols at all.  They have three categories of parameters:

By Catalog: These are typically parameter settings that are fixed by the manufacturer.  Eg: The with and height if prebuilt size windows, Jamb, sash sizes, configurations, etc.  Users cannot easily change these because the manufacturer specifies them.

By Style and By Instance:  Users can freely adjust which parameters are by style and by instance.  This allows easier management by setting some by style and more flexibility for one-off cases by setting some parameters by instance.

 

The only way a style catalog would be like a symbol is if all parameters in the object were set to By Catalog.

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

PIO Style catalogs are not like symbols at all.  They have three categories of parameters:

By Catalog: These are typically parameter settings that are fixed by the manufacturer.  Eg: The with and height if prebuilt size windows, Jamb, sash sizes, configurations, etc.  Users cannot easily change these because the manufacturer specifies them.

By Style and By Instance:  Users can freely adjust which parameters are by style and by instance.  This allows easier management by setting some by style and more flexibility for one-off cases by setting some parameters by instance.

 

The only way a style catalog would be like a symbol is if all parameters in the object were set to By Catalog.

 

My point was that if the intention is that a separate style is to be saved for each size of window, then you are ending up with something like a symbol, because what then is there to be altered per instance? The main things that tend to alter per instance in a set of windows all from the same manufacturer/product line are (a) opening configuration and (b) size. In the case of the supplied Velfac style, the opening configuration is set to be by catalog [item], and the size is set to be by style.

 

If the intention is not that we save a separate style for each size of window, then it doesn't make any sense to present the Velfac style to the user with height and width set by style.

 

This is maybe a pedantic point, but it's all these little things that get in the way of stuff being easily usable.

 

...and calling one of the options "By Catalog" is confusing, because if a parameter is set "By Catalog" it is not set by some global quality of the catalog, it is set by the catalog item that is chosen. I think it should be called "By Catalog Item".

[Matt Panzer]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

My point was that if the intention is that a separate style is to be saved for each size of window, then you are ending up with something like a symbol, because what then is there to be altered per instance? The main things that tend to alter per instance in a set of windows all from the same manufacturer/product line are (a) opening configuration and (b) size. In the case of the supplied Velfac style, the opening configuration is set to be by catalog [item], and the size is set to be by style.

 

If the intention is not that we save a separate style for each size of window, then it doesn't make any sense to present the Velfac style to the user with height and width set by style.

 

This is maybe a pedantic point, but it's all these little things that get in the way of stuff being easily usable.

 

...and calling one of the options "By Catalog" is confusing, because if a parameter is set "By Catalog" it is not set by some global quality of the catalog, it is set by the catalog item that is chosen. I think it should be called "By Catalog Item".

 

OK.  I agree that the our styled content that use catalog items that do not specify Width and Height might be better to have the "Width" and "Height" parameters set to By Instance.  However, I could still see that being debatable if you're using multiple Vefac windows of a specific size in a project.  Can you please post a request for this in the wishlist forum?  It would be good to hear other user feedback on this.

 

As for the term "by catalog" vs "by catalog item": I think that a little debatable because the value comes from the catalog either way.  IOW, the catalog controls it according to the item chosen from it.  I would say both are correct but your suggested terminology is a little more specific.

[line-weight]

14 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

As for the term "by catalog" vs "by catalog item": I think that a little debatable because the value comes from the catalog either way.  IOW, the catalog controls it according to the item chosen from it.  I would say both are correct but your suggested terminology is a little more specific.

To be fair, re-checking now, most of the prompts in the UI do talk about catalog items:

 

I think the place where the confusion starts is here:

 

 

Because this (at least it did for me, when first meeting it) makes it look like everything you are dealing with in that little row of controls, is the style. That's because it says "Style Name:" then gives you a string of controls. But to the right of the Style Name field, these buttons are firstly controlling how the Catalog Item is set, and then which catalog item is chosen. If I hover over the first button I get:

 

 

What parameter, though? The style name? That wouldn't make sense of course, but when you meet this for the first time, it's actually very difficult to realise the parameter is "catalog item".

 

If there's one thing I could change about this interface, it would simply to have the text "Catalog Item:" to the left of that button.

 

[line-weight]

Then when I get to this dialogue

 

 

I can see that I can choose "Manufacturer/Series" and "Product Line-Custom size only". It is not made clear that these are in fact "catalog" and "catalog item" respectively.

 

This is such a common theme in the Vectorworks UI: we are given some kind of concept with a name but the terminology is then applied inconsistently. So you are often looking at something trying to work out exactly what it is, when simply identifying it with already familiar terminology would allow immediate understanding.

[Matt Panzer]

6 hours ago, line-weight said:

To be fair, re-checking now, most of the prompts in the UI do talk about catalog items:

 

I think the place where the confusion starts is here:

 

 

Because this (at least it did for me, when first meeting it) makes it look like everything you are dealing with in that little row of controls, is the style. That's because it says "Style Name:" then gives you a string of controls. But to the right of the Style Name field, these buttons are firstly controlling how the Catalog Item is set, and then which catalog item is chosen. If I hover over the first button I get:

 

 

What parameter, though? The style name? That wouldn't make sense of course, but when you meet this for the first time, it's actually very difficult to realise the parameter is "catalog item".

 

If there's one thing I could change about this interface, it would simply to have the text "Catalog Item:" to the left of that button.

 

 

6 hours ago, line-weight said:

Then when I get to this dialogue

 

 

I can see that I can choose "Manufacturer/Series" and "Product Line-Custom size only". It is not made clear that these are in fact "catalog" and "catalog item" respectively.

 

This is such a common theme in the Vectorworks UI: we are given some kind of concept with a name but the terminology is then applied inconsistently. So you are often looking at something trying to work out exactly what it is, when simply identifying it with already familiar terminology would allow immediate understanding.

 

Points well taken! 🙂 

Thank you for laying all this out!  I agree that the UI could make the concept of "catalog item" clearer.  I added a VE for this and inked it to this thread.

Thanks @line-weight!