"Catalog" objects - very confusing

[line-weight]

Does this really have to be so confusing?

 

Say we have a window system from a particular manufacturer. There might be a bunch of variants in that system (top hung vs side hung casements, etc etc) but they will have lots of things in common like the frame profile and so on.

 

So... for each window instance in a drawing, its parameters might come from 3 different sources:

- instance specific (for example overall size)

- variant specific (for example opening configuration)

- system-wide (for example frame profile)

 

And I think the "catalog" concept attempts to deal with this. I'd expect to go to an individual instance's settings and be able to choose its style (manufacturer system) then the catalog variant (top hung window or glazed door or whatever) then set the parameters like overall size for that particular instance.

 

But this doesn't seem to be how it actually works, or it doesn't appear to be, if I just choose a library style and go from there.

 

- For example, if I go to the VW library and choose the "Velfac UK Windows" style, I get a side-hung Velfac window. How do I choose a top-hung Velfac window? In the window settings, "configuarion" is greyed out. So, presumably I need to choose a top hung variant from the catalog. It says "Velfac UK (Velfac 200), Side Hung" up at the top there, and the little book symbol, to the left of that, if I hover over it gives me a prompt "click here to choose an item from the catalog" but it too is greyed out, and I can't choose anything. OK, so this is greyed out, because this window style is set such that the catalogue item is set by style and not set by instance.

 

 

- I can of course edit the "Velfac UK Windows" style, and change the catalogue item so that it's "top hung" instead. But, this means that every window in my project with this style has to be top hung. Well, that's no use because almost no project will be like that.

 

- Or, in the style settings, I choose catalog item to be chosen by instance not by style. Now I can choose what catalogue variant I want in the settings for each instance. This seems much more intuitive and useful.

 

So why is it set, by default, such that catalog variant is determined by style? Would it not be much less confusing to have it set by instance, as the default?

 

Or is that not how this is intended to be used - in other words is the intention that I create a separate style for each catalogue variant? I don't see how that would be a useful way to set things up.

[line-weight]

Also, why is "configuration" greyed out (and set to "folding")? I would expect this to be set per catalog variant. So, if I wanted to make my own catalogue variant, I'd create one and adjust settings here. It seems to be locked out. So does that mean I can't create new variants, or tweak existing ones?

 

 

And another thing.

 

When I select this particular style from the library, the overall window size is set as "by style". Why? Surely the overall size is the first and most likely thing you'd want to change per instance.

[line-weight]

15 minutes ago, line-weight said:

So does that mean I can't create new variants, or tweak existing ones?

 

 

Ok, it looks like I can make a new "catalog item" (or duplicate & edit an existing one) in the dialogue box accessed via the "select from catalogue" button.

 

And I can change various parameters for that item.

 

However .... what I actually want to do in this case, is take the library Velfac V200 style, and make a new style that matches the Velfac V200E system. This is basically the triple glazed version so I'd want to increase the thickness of the glazing and also the depth of the frames. Logically - I'd have thought I could change that style-wide, by going to "jamb and sash" settings, but the relevant parameters are greyed out. The prompt tells me they are "locked to the chosen catalogue item".

 

So, to make these changes to the style, I'd have to go and individually edit each "catalogue item"? Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of having product families like this? Really what I want is to set certain things by style, and have them apply to all catalog items used by that style.

[line-weight]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:18 PM, line-weight said:

Also, why is "configuration" greyed out (and set to "folding")?

 

On 3/27/2023 at 12:41 PM, line-weight said:

So, to make these changes to the style, I'd have to go and individually edit each "catalogue item"? Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of having product families like this? Really what I want is to set certain things by style, and have them apply to all catalog items used by that style.

 

Can anyone offer any answers here?

[Tom W.]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:18 PM, line-weight said:

Also, why is "configuration" greyed out (and set to "folding")?

 

The 'Configuration: Folding' settings are only available if you select 'Folding' in the Configuration drop-down on the General pane. But you can't do this because you don't get folding Velfac 200 windows.

[Tom W.]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:41 PM, line-weight said:

However .... what I actually want to do in this case, is take the library Velfac V200 style, and make a new style that matches the Velfac V200E system. This is basically the triple glazed version so I'd want to increase the thickness of the glazing and also the depth of the frames. Logically - I'd have thought I could change that style-wide, by going to "jamb and sash" settings, but the relevant parameters are greyed out. The prompt tells me they are "locked to the chosen catalogue item".

 

So, to make these changes to the style, I'd have to go and individually edit each "catalogue item"? Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of having product families like this? Really what I want is to set certain things by style, and have them apply to all catalog items used by that style.

 

I think you can create your own new Velfac 200E catalogue item via the 'Custom Catalog Item' settings...:

 

[line-weight]

54 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

The 'Configuration: Folding' settings are only available if you select 'Folding' in the Configuration drop-down on the General pane. But you can't do this because you don't get folding Velfac 200 windows.

 

I see, thanks.

 

For all the other configuration types, the configuration-specific settings appear at the bottom of the General settings pane. Seems like inconsistent UI design to me. Another thing to increase potential confusion.

 

 

[Tom W.]

25 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

I see, thanks.

 

For all the other configuration types, the configuration-specific settings appear at the bottom of the General settings pane. Seems like inconsistent UI design to me. Another thing to increase potential confusion.

 

 

 

I agree it doesn't seem logical. Folding door + window configurations were new with VW2023 so I guess was just the easiest way to incorporate the new settings into the existing interface...? It all needs a bit of an overhaul really as we all know...

[line-weight]

2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

I think you can create your own new Velfac 200E catalogue item via the 'Custom Catalog Item' settings...:

 

 

Yes, I seem to be able to create a single custom "item" like this:

 

 

Assuming that "manufacturer/series" is the same as "catalog" and "product line-custom size only" is the same as "catalog item", but I'm not really sure if that's true.

 

Doing that gives me this:

 

 

You can see that next to "Manufacturer/Series" it lists my catalog name "v200E catalogue test" but greyed out. And I don't seem to be able to add any further items to this list.

 

Here's what I get if I switch back to the "select from catalog" button:

 

 

And next to "Manufacturer/Series" there is a drop down, not greyed out now, but there's only one option in that dropdown, my newly created one doesn't appear there.

 

Neither does my newly created whatever-it-is appear in the options to attach a different catalog to the style:

 

 

It's all pretty much entirely baffling to me.

[Tom W.]

I never use the catalogs... Not entirely convinced what the benefit is (or would be) over separate styles... Can you not just have a Velfac 200 style + a Velfac 200E style?

[line-weight]

2 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I never use the catalogs... Not entirely convinced what the benefit is (or would be) over separate styles... Can you not just have a Velfac 200 style + a Velfac 200E style?

I can yes!

 

But thought that the catalogue concept was maybe a tidy way of having variants within a style (in the case of Velfac, which I'm just using as an example, the variants would be different opening configurations).

 

The implementation though seems so confusion, I don't even know if I'm supposed to be able to do that. Hence this thread.

 

In actual fact, assuming "catalogs" are not usable, it is more likely that I'd have to have several Velfac 200E styles - Velfac 200E side hung window, Velfac 200E casement door, Velfact 200E top hung window etc etc.

[Matt Panzer]

I agree the catalog system is a bit convoluted.  This is mainly due to it being a general system that can work with any PIO Style.

The "Custom Catalog Item" radio button is more like a way to create a one-off for the PIO instance and still have it attached to the catalog.  This means that item will only be available in that one instance of the style and only shows when you select "Custom Catalog Item".  However, if you select the "Select from Catalog" radio button, you can add and edit catalog items directly in the catalog.  All catalog items added and edited by the user are stored in the Vectorworks user folder and are available to all PIO styles using that catalog in all documents.  The best way to create a new catalog item is to select one that is close to what you after, click the "Duplicate…" button, and edit it as needed.

[Tom W.]

5 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

I agree the catalog system is a bit convoluted.  This is mainly due to it being a general system that can work with any PIO Style.

The "Custom Catalog Item" radio button is more like a way to create a one-off for the PIO instance and still have it attached to the catalog.  This means that item will only be available in that one instance of the style and only shows when you select "Custom Catalog Item".  However, if you select the "Select from Catalog" radio button, you can add and edit catalog items directly in the catalog.  All catalog items added and edited by the user are stored in the Vectorworks user folder and are available to all PIO styles using that catalog in all documents.  The best way to create a new catalog item is to select one that is close to what you after, click the "Duplicate…" button, and edit it as needed.

 

Is there a way to create a new catalog? Your method would see new items being placed in the Velfac 200 catalog when ideally they'd go in a separate Velfac 200E catalog...

[line-weight]

16 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

I agree the catalog system is a bit convoluted.  This is mainly due to it being a general system that can work with any PIO Style.

The "Custom Catalog Item" radio button is more like a way to create a one-off for the PIO instance and still have it attached to the catalog.  This means that item will only be available in that one instance of the style and only shows when you select "Custom Catalog Item".  However, if you select the "Select from Catalog" radio button, you can add and edit catalog items directly in the catalog.  All catalog items added and edited by the user are stored in the Vectorworks user folder and are available to all PIO styles using that catalog in all documents.  The best way to create a new catalog item is to select one that is close to what you after, click the "Duplicate…" button, and edit it as needed.

 

Yes, had kind of worked that out but see my questions here:

 

 

On 3/27/2023 at 12:41 PM, line-weight said:

 

Ok, it looks like I can make a new "catalog item" (or duplicate & edit an existing one) in the dialogue box accessed via the "select from catalogue" button.

 

And I can change various parameters for that item.

 

However .... what I actually want to do in this case, is take the library Velfac V200 style, and make a new style that matches the Velfac V200E system. This is basically the triple glazed version so I'd want to increase the thickness of the glazing and also the depth of the frames. Logically - I'd have thought I could change that style-wide, by going to "jamb and sash" settings, but the relevant parameters are greyed out. The prompt tells me they are "locked to the chosen catalogue item".

 

So, to make these changes to the style, I'd have to go and individually edit each "catalogue item"? Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of having product families like this? Really what I want is to set certain things by style, and have them apply to all catalog items used by that style.

 

And also, as @Tom W.says, is there any way to create a new, user-created catalog?

[Tom W.]

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

I agree it doesn't seem logical. Folding door + window configurations were new with VW2023 so I guess was just the easiest way to incorporate the new settings into the existing interface...?

 

I take this back. It's no different to how the Barn Door, Pocket + Sliding configurations have been laid out for Doors for some time:

 

[Matt Panzer]

2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Is there a way to create a new catalog? Your method would see new items being placed in the Velfac 200 catalog when ideally they'd go in a separate Velfac 200E catalog...

 

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

Yes, had kind of worked that out but see my questions here:

 

 

 

And also, as @Tom W.says, is there any way to create a new, user-created catalog?

 

WARNING:  The following message describes how to monkey around with PIO Style Catalog files.  This is NOT for the faint at heart.

 

I assume you want to create an exact copy of the Velfac 200 catalog, change the glass thickness parameter for all items, and rename the catalog "Velfac 200E".  Is that correct?  If so, you can find the catalog files in the Vectorworks application folder in Libraries/Building/Window (styles)/Catalogs.  Each catalog has 3 associated files with the same file name:

1. CatalogName.xml:  This file defines what's in the catalog data.  Assuming you don't want to change what parameters are set by the catalog, I highly recommend just renaming the duplicate file to your new catalog name but do not edit its contents.  If you do want to change what parameters are set by the catalog, I highly recommend you don't. 😉   This get much more complicated when doing that.
2. CatalogName.txt:  This file contains all of the catalog data in a format the Vectorworks can read.  You should be able to open this file in Excel, edit the parameter values (each parameter is in its own column), save, and you should be good.  Note: When a catalog is read by Vectorworks, it is cached, so any changes to the catalog file require restarting Vectorworks so it reads in the new data.
3. CatalogName.xlsx:  This is the original Excel file use to create and export the "txt" data file.  Vectorworks does not read this file but you can edit it and export a new txt data file from it.

What you want to do is to locate your new catalog files in the Vectorworks User folder using the same folder structure as in the Vectorworks application folder.  The file name before the extension of these files must be the same and that name will be used for the catalog name you see in Vectorworks.

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

I assume you want to create an exact copy of the Velfac 200 catalog, change the glass thickness parameter for all items, and rename the catalog "Velfac 200E".  Is that correct?

Well, I'd want to change more than that really, I'd want to at least change the jamb/sash profiles too. Possibly such that it would be quicker to make one from scratch.

 

However...the point of doing it as a "catalogue" would be so that I have a "style" and then there would be certain parameters in the style that I'd want to change once and have populate out to all the variants in the catalogue. But I don't think that's how it works, or is intended to work. Is that right?

 

(Thanks though for the explanation of how to unofficially mess with catalogs. I think it demonstrates that it's something users aren't supposed to fiddle with. But I would say that certain elements of the UI suggests that we are.)

[Matt Panzer]

57 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Well, I'd want to change more than that really, I'd want to at least change the jamb/sash profiles too. Possibly such that it would be quicker to make one from scratch.

 

If you're ok leaving which parameters are "by catalog" and just want to change their values in the catalog, it shouldn't be too difficult to do this by editing the "txt" data file in excel.  Of course, catalogs with hundreds or thousands of items might take a little more work, but the Velfac catalog only has a small number.

 

57 minutes ago, line-weight said:

However...the point of doing it as a "catalogue" would be so that I have a "style" and then there would be certain parameters in the style that I'd want to change once and have populate out to all the variants in the catalogue. But I don't think that's how it works, or is intended to work. Is that right?

 

Right.  If you want to change all catalog item parameters, you'd be better off duplicating the catalog with a new name and changing the data.  You can edit parameter values of existing items in the catalog and items will be saved in your user folder and used instead of the items in the applications folder.  So there is that flexibility.

 

57 minutes ago, line-weight said:

(Thanks though for the explanation of how to unofficially mess with catalogs. I think it demonstrates that it's something users aren't supposed to fiddle with. But I would say that certain elements of the UI suggests that we are.)

 

Vectorworks allows you to make adjustments to a catalog through the UI fairly easily but creating a catalog from scratch is quite a bit of effort.  But copying, renaming and modifying one might not be too overwhelming - especially if you're only changing parameter values in the data.

 

[line-weight]

I think basically I still don't understand what catalogs are for. What advantage does a catalogue have over a collection of styles? As in, a folder called "Velfac 200" or whatever, and then within that folder, a bunch of slightly different styles, each covering a single variation of the system?

 

(As far as I can see, from the user's point of view that's what you have to end up with anyway - a bunch of renamed "Velfac 200" styles, one to cover each variant of the system you are using in your project)

[Matt Panzer]

25 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I think basically I still don't understand what catalogs are for. What advantage does a catalogue have over a collection of styles? As in, a folder called "Velfac 200" or whatever, and then within that folder, a bunch of slightly different styles, each covering a single variation of the system?

 

(As far as I can see, from the user's point of view that's what you have to end up with anyway - a bunch of renamed "Velfac 200" styles, one to cover each variant of the system you are using in your project)

 

I would say catalogs have more to do with creating and delivering content as well as locking specific parameters that are specified by the manufacturer.  A content creator can create a massive number of catalog items and deliver the data files which take up very little space.  Creating and managing the same number of catalog items as separate object styles takes MANY times longer, is more error prone, creates much large content files, and looses the ability to lock certain manufacturer specified parameters.

[line-weight]

On 3/29/2023 at 10:24 PM, Matt Panzer said:

 

I would say catalogs have more to do with creating and delivering content as well as locking specific parameters that are specified by the manufacturer.  A content creator can create a massive number of catalog items and deliver the data files which take up very little space.  Creating and managing the same number of catalog items as separate object styles takes MANY times longer, is more error prone, creates much large content files, and looses the ability to lock certain manufacturer specified parameters.

 

Yes, I think I can see how it is designed to make the delivery of content easier.

 

Unfortunately though, it seems to me that what has been created is not very convenient for the user.

 

There are two aspects of the Velfac window implementation that I would suggest need to be changed, because otherwise it is completely confusing and non-user-friendly. I've mentioned these both already further up the thread. I don't know if this applies to other window types too:

 

1. It's no good for "select from catalog" to be greyed out in the OIP when I create a window using this style from the library. This surely defeats the whole purpose of the catalog:

It took me a while to work out how to ungrey that button. Where I have circled red in the style settings below needs to be changed from "by class" to "by instance"

 

2. At least height and width (circled in green) need to be "by instance". These windows aren't like kitchen cabinets, the "catalogue" doesn't contain standard sizes. Windows are made to size by order. This needs to be adjustable per instance.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

This is completely true but it's very easy to make these changes then resave the style, either to your user folder or favourites or even edit the style in the application folder. I rarely use any of the resources straight from the VW libraries. I only use resources from my favourites/user folder. Many are derived originally from VW versions but there are very few of them I'd want to use directly out the box.

 

I realise however the point you're making is that it would be a lot easier for people generally to engage with the catalog styles were they set up like this from the start.

[line-weight]

26 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

This is completely true but it's very easy to make these changes then resave the style,

 

It's easy to actually do it, but if you have not fiddled around with the "catalog" system before it's not at all obvious that this is what you need to do. I lost several hours of productive work the other day, trying to work out why I couldn't simply choose an item from the "catalog".

 

It would be very easy for the folks at VW to change, to make users' lives less painful. They don't even need to wait for a software update to release it.

[line-weight]

Also... even if you are going to leave it to users to sort out:

 

That button that I've circled red, the one you need to change to "per instance" to make anything work, the UI doesn't make it at all clear what it actually relates to.

 

To the left of it, it should say something like "Catalogue item:"

 

To the right of it, the button naming and layout could be improved to make it more obvious what you're actually choosing/changing too.

 

I know I'm just shaking my fist at the sky with this UI stuff though.

[Tom W.]

I'm not sure it's possible to have a single Velfac style for multiple different windows anyway is it? Aren't you committed to duplicating the default catalog style + creating your own styles with different settings? Otherwise every window would be by instance? Aren't they just templates from which to create your own styles?