defjef

At home I work on a PC usually with an HP 1120 and and HP 930 Windows ME. I cannot find a SAALE drawing box in page set up. But let me ask.. If I scale and entire drawing do the arrowheads and other drawing marks scale down? As I recall some "objects" do scale down.. but I ecalll arrowheads do not rescale. Does the elusive SCALE drawing option in the page set up reduce everything on the drawing to a new scale? Do drawing title objects indicate the "new" scale" or the original scale??

Katie.. There is np PAGE ATTRIBTUES drop down under FILE / PAGE SET UP. The only drop downs are SIZE and SOURCE. Under properties there is a check box SCALE TO FIT,,, is this the deal?

Cipes... Are you saying that in 8.52 there is a field in the PAGE SET UP command where you can enter a % for SCALING? Is this for any printer or just some printers? On my 2 HPs.. 930 and 1120 no such option exists. Can you clarify?

I have found it unusual that the VW marketing people do not make make a more concerted effort to woo ACAD users. I have even witten to the VW people about the issue. It appears that the only concession that VW .... and perhaps other CAD software companies makes is their ability to import and export in DXF and DWG formats. Of course, without these file translators almost all other CAD programs would be almost irrelevant. In the real world businesses exchange information / data in digital formats as well as paper documents. In the real architecture world, for example, the end product of an architect is his drawings and specifications which are USED in paper format at this date. All his work ultimately is reproduced and distributed to those who "use" them in paper format. In a sense it does not matter how the black lines and type got onto the "copies" which are distributed. However, the PROCESS of creating and assembling the information which ultimately is distribuited to the "field" and to others is what the digital revolution is all about. Computers and software are the new pens, lead holders, T squares, compasses, stencils....type writers and note pads of the bygone era.. Did I forget erasers??? In larger work enviroments many people contribute to a project in the design stage. This is no different from the various trades who each contribute something to the completed building. The key to marshall all this is COORDINATION. In the design office workers must have the most transparent means to coordinate and cooperate. They also need to coordinate and communicate with outside participants such as consultants. In the world of free enterprise many stepped up to the task of creating new digital tools for the designers, architects and aengineers to create, coordinate and communicate their designs. It is clear to this writer that ACAD did / does not mimic in any significant way the way designers, and draftsman work was done in the past. ACAD is very awkward and counter intuitive to the "drawing/design" process. The most obvious flaw being that you don't actually see what you are drawing, but a digital / mathematical representation of it. The ACAD software is becoming more WYSIWIG but it has a way to go obviously. But I digress... Like Windows, ACAD dominates the market. Any software company which wants access to ALL the world's PCs must write their code to perform on both Windows and MAC environments. AutoDesk is not intersted in the MAC environment as they are satisfied with the vast percentage that the PCs occupy in the personal computing universe. VW may have been born in a MAC enviroment, but it has been forced to write code and it makes its software look and act the same (almost) in the PC world, or else be resigned to the few MAC users. At this date it is irrelevant to argue the merits of MAC vs PC. We cannot know the business plan of VW. Are they seeking to expand market share and replace ACAD in existing ACAD environments as the CAD program of choice? Are they content to have the relatively samll market share they possess? I would assume YES, because I see no evidence of any approach to woo ACAD users to VW. If there is a marketing strategy for this purpose? If there is not... why not? It appears that there are many compelling reasons for design professionals to use VW, cost being a MAJOR consideration. I do recall some "competitions" held between competing CAD programs. I assume these were held to determine by several objective standards which program and team of users produced the "best" results. I would like to know how you do compare CAD prpgrams. Surely "time to learn" would be a very important consideration. OK that may be hard in this day and age when most professionals know one CAD or another. How about having the participants who know only one CAD come to the competition and pick a SOFTWARE out of a grab bag and then sit down and compete... First to learn whatever they picked... and then to USE it. I think the results would reveal a lot. Getting a large office... or any office for that matter to SWITCH formats is a daunting task. Think about getting any office to switch from MAC to PC for example. The cost is staggering. The trend needs to be more cross platform transparency... where it doesn't matter if there is an Intel inside. Windows and MAC OS look similar enough for most people to work in either environment these days. Many major software programs work on either platform. This is because those software engineers recognise it makes sense to do so until there is a universal OS. What would make engineers, architects and designers migrate to VW, for example, from ACAD? Ease of use? Cost of the software? Knowing that they can hire pre-trained staff? Knowledge that there files can be conveyed, viewed and printed easily by others with varying skill levels on different hardware platforms? How about increased productivity and improved bottom line? It appears to this writer, that the case may be there, but it certainly is not being made by VW as a marketing approach. Can someone demonstarte that I am wrong? Any thoughts on this topic? [ 02-17-2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: defjef ]

Jan... that post was exemplary. I work in VW 8.52 in a sea of ACAD2000 people. I am much more productive... but perhaps I would be more productive than those guys if I worked in ACAD. It is really hard to make the productivity claim when you compare individuals using different platforms. I know we have one ACAD wiz whose hand never seem to touch a mouse.. with a flurry of keys strokes.. drawings appear and evolve. We also have others who move slowly. I am ACAD illiterate so I cannot evaluate their program... But it sure looks clumsy. I hate the fact that their program is not WYSIWYG. It reminds me of the primitive DOS based word processing programs where you had to insert all sorts of formatting commands and your IBM screen displayed green or orange... I recall.. courier 14. You could only see you word document when you printed it. Despite the fact that ACAD may have some interesting "commands" or features.. the absence of true WYSIWYG and true layers is a deal breaker for me and I will NEVER move to ACAD. On top of that is the absurd pricing of ACAD. What would be perfect for VW users is a completely seamless file translation between VW and ACAD.. and I mean completely seamless.. Like click on the file ICON and open it in the other program. Of course since ACAD draw at "full scale" this will alwaus be a issue.... not insurmountable... but it does require some messing about. Anyway.. I appreciated Jan's cross platform analysis and I plan to print it and distrubute it as a memo around the office.

I think they deserve a RAISE! Are you listening over there in the cushy chairs and corner offices?

I have used the program for 8 years and have never used any other setting EXCEPT Print Area - One Page. Why don't you make or didnt you.... make this a default which requires you to change it for any OTHER printing situation??? When I think of all the time I yanked that heavy menu down to check that ONE PAGE selection... I coulda been havin a whole extra day in my life. [ 01-15-2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: defjef ]

You can import several other cad profgrams if they are DWG or DXF format. I am not very proficient at it... but do it frequently as our office is an AutoCAD enviroment. When I do import, the files they come in on one layer. I then convert the colors to something which makes sense. and "draw" on newly created layers. A typical use would be when a draftsman inputs field measurements into an "as built" existing conditions drawing in ACAD. What I often do is copy the EXISTING CONDITIONS to another layer and name the layer it DEMO and turn all the lines to "dashed" and red for example. I then have two layers with the existing conditions on them ... one say... solid black and a heavy line weight... and another.. the DEMO later with all the lines lighter weight and dashed. When the layers are viewed at the same time... or printed with both layers on... it looks as solid heavy lines. The I use a NEW layer called PROPOSED , for example... and use VW walls to create the proposed changes. If there is demolition involved I then go to the EXISTING CONDITIONS layer and delete the walls etc which are to be removed. Now when view or printing all three layers ON you see the demo as dotted red.. the to remain as heavy black lines... and the proposed as filled cavitied walls with VW doors windows and whatever else I want to put on the plan... such as floor designs notes etc. If you want you can delete all the dashed lines which represent work to remain on the DEMO layer. This layer will now have only the dashed lines of the work to be removed. The EXISTING CONDITIONS will have only the work which remains and the PROPOSED will have only the work to be done. Move the PROPOSED to the top if you want it to block the the DEMO later when new wall etc appear where demo work takes place. I hope this explanation is helpful. It may not be what others do... but it works for me and is very quick and efficient. You can accomplish similar results using classes.. and class visibility. On a related note.... One of the fellows in the office sat next to me and watched me revise a drawing in VW and decided he was tied of ACAD and wanted to give VW a try! I am going to give him a walk thru one weekend. And he is not the only one in that offce.... another collegue marvels at how we stack up LAYERS like floors in a building.. not the silly layers which ACAD uses.. which we know as CLASSES... in any case doing buildings with things which need to make sense with what's above and below is such a breeze in VW.. instead of using x refs all the time. He is next in line for a saturday tutorial. However, the office will not go VW because they feel that ACAD is the most common program out there.. easiest to fined hires and exchange files with other professionals. They think like draftsmen in black and white.. and hatches... and have learned to see colors and have some other meaning other than what they look like on the screen. They are still drawing line for line and use an occassional block. They do have a marvelous program for creating windows in elevations. It is based on Marvin and allows all sorts of divided lite combinations done very quickly. I often import their elevations and use their windows in my own elevations!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHA. I do OK for an old dude who had to learn to CAD and refused to become an ACAD clone. I am sure ACAD has advantages but I am not smart enough to see what they are. I am concentrating on VW and getting it going as fast as I can. It takes some time to think in "CAD" but once you begin to... you can do some very good work.

Anyone want to swap a 8 architect for a 9 architect.??? Seriously... can I get my old 8 Architect manual back????

Robert... The manuals I have are from products I legally purchased from Diehl or whomever owned the company at the time... of course. Unfortunately, the VERSION of the software for which the manual was written is not clearly stated. I bought 9.0 as soon as it shipped.. used it for a while and decided I did not want it and I thought I returned everything. I did receive a credit on my VISA. I may have returned the wrong manual and that may explain what you surmise is that I a referring to the manual for 9.0 and using 8.52... with an 8 Architect manual Whomever was the genius who did the MANUAL DESIGN seems averse to identifying what version of the software the manual is written for. I do recall... corrent me if I am wrong... that 8 was the release where you had an ARCHITECT module "workspace" which came on a separate disc and had a separate manual which is on my desk and titled Vectorworks Architect (user's guide). Now... this may very well be the 9.0 Architect Manual ... BUT I CAN"T TELL. It is the manual I tried to used when I attempted to do a DTM. I am self taught on VW.... which is a testament to the people who made the program so intuitive and user friendly... most of it. I occassionally open up the manual to learn something new... and that is how I fell into the DTM hole. However... If I have the 9.0 manual... I no longer have an 8.0 ARCHITECT manual as I must have returned that one. However... I am not convinced that this here manual is the 9.0 one... yet. HOW can i definitely detrmine which manual I have? I blame this confusion on the User manual designers/editor/authors and their blind spot to CLEARLY identify what VERSION of the software the manual is intended for. How can the editor make this mistake? Who DOES the technical writing for your manuals? There ARE professionals who skilled technical writers and does this properly..... I know ... you are a software company and write code and not manuals... If you want a referral to an excellent technical writer let me know... it's not me.. that's for sure. BTW.. give Katie a raise.. she is top at what she does... and you guys can bless your lucky stars you have such a competant person as she on board! [ 01-07-2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: defjef ]

Robert.... I understand that a software company and an automotive one are vastly different animals. My point was that the manual I have and the software dont seem to "consistant". Yes I did change workspaces to DTM... and NO there is no SIte Model Command. And Katie.. YES I tried New DTM and again NO there was no site model command. What I tried to do was use the grid entry system to elnter elevations on a test grid. I understood that once all the point were entered... I could ten use the Site model command to take the next steps to create a site model. But no matter how I try I cannot find that command. Of course I may have something off here... but it is the same on both the MAC and PC version I work on in 8.52. If someone can direct me to a manual.. perhaps online which properly describes how I can use this feature, I would be most grateful. If they can't... I must assume that the command is missing and the DTM can't work... at least with the grid entry approach. As far as creating 2D polygons.. I have not started a DTM with this approach. Can I assume that the Site Model dialog box would appear if I used THAT approach? thanks

Robert... With all due respect... 8.52 may be old in your way of thinking...but it raises a curious point.... you people apparently are loathe to offer any kind of support for older versions of your products? And why is it so difficult for you to look at page 6-5 of the ARCHITECT documentation.. titled SITE MODEL and see what I refer to? I quote: 1. Select MODEL > Sitework > Site Model The Site Model dialog box opens. So where is the SITEWORK - Site Model command under the MODEL menu? THAT IS THE QUESTION. By the way.. I drive a 1997 Audi A6 which performs flawlessly... and its almost 6 years old now. When I go to the Audi service for a question.. I get an answer .. not an obfusgation or something about how it works in the 2002 Audi model. I find that dismissive attitude you display for people who have purchased and earlier version of your product and a whole series of upgrades.. yet have not changed to the most current version deplorable at best. In fact, much of the reason for people NOT upgrading is because it has been demonstrated that your releases are FULL OF BUGS, CONFLICTS and represent tremendous expense to those who upgrade.. aside from the purchase price of the upgrade in lost time, crashes and chasing support... and installing "fixes". I urge you to reconsider this approach and render the support required by your customers, regardless of their age, their level of expertise, or the version of your product which they purchased. [ 01-06-2003, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: defjef ]

Sorry.. I didnt mention that I am usuing the Archtitect Module.. not the plain one. I did open the DTM workspace but did NOT notice any different commands or tools. The manual I have shows a SITEOWORK command/tool and I can't for the live of me find it. I also have a MAC which is OS 9 running 8.52 and it is also missing this command / tool. The manual is little help I found .. obviously. thanks [ 01-05-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: defjef ]

I am using 8.52 and decided to try the DTM. I started with the grid entry method. However I cannot locate the command "sitework" under the MODEL menu. What gives? I am using Windows ME.

Richard and Irving again raise what appears to me to be the SINGLE MOST SIGNIGANT problem with VW - its problems with seamlessly importing and exporting to/from any and all versions of ACAD without LOSS of data. The reality is that MOST of the world is ACAD, regardless of how flawed that program may be. And the reality is that VW people will inevitably have to deal with the ACAD universe... and they with the VW people. I don't think and speed or productivity upgrades amount to a hill of beans until you get the import/export to ACAD down to a quick simple reliable process WITHOUT DATA LOSS. Once this is accomplished the two platforms can live in the same office, the same world, and there will be no need for staff trained in both platforms and so on. It will also allow talent VW people to work in ACAN environments and visa versa. Since ACAD rules the market it is the VW people who must reach out to get their software to work and not the other way round. Sorry fellas in the front office. For those who work in "isolation" and do not need to deal with the ACAD universe all the new tools, and productivity are all THEY care about. Of course, everyone wants a bug free stable platform. The limitations I experience are not related to tools and 3D and so forth, but interfacing with ACAD people. As a result I am working with the dinosaur known as 8.52. I have made a personal decision not to upgrade until the ACAD issue has been once and for all been dealt with.

OK Matt, Tech support is terrrific... I have no beef with them. I have NOT upgraded my "environment" because I will have to go through hell with all my apps and drivers and so on and so on. When the puter breaks I may have to face the situation where the old software does not work on the new hardware... and bite the bullet and upgrade. I dont consider an upgrade and upgrade unless there is some serious productivity augmentation. I also think that the old files should not be corrupted into new and unreadable versions by the old software. What I think that the Software vendors should do for their customers... the ones who have already boght their product... is send them a FREE upgrade with an expiratrion date. This allows them to test the product and decide if it is worth the cost. I don't want to but it... install it.. and return it as I did with 9.0. What I am feeling is that I am in for a continuing $500 every 18 months or so... and that is for a single license. I don't like that feeling. There are seemingly many features in the program that I have no use for.. and also new features which are added which I also have no use for. I really dont have the time to play with a program and learn it and try to make my clients pay for my training. That IS a dilemma. So until I can justify the time/expense of "upgrading"... I will stick with "if it aint broke dont fix it" kinda thing. thanks

I think it is unwise to rush out and buy the new release of a program before it has been really around for a while. You need to examine your CAD needs and what is missing in what you are using it for. New releases are SUPPOSED to be productivity increases... giving you new tools.. or improving functionalality of the existing ones. I am still stuck in the 8's and have been duped in ordering 9 right when it was announced. I find 8.52 works very well.. and I am still learning to use the tools it offers. Yes I woulkd like some things work better and differently... but when I tried the 9 it seemd like a disaster and apparently it was. Frankly I resent the approach of these software companies who must spend enormous amounts of money developing new versions of the same software... and then sell "upgrades" to their "subscribers." Having to spend $500 every couple of years is like a lifetime subscription. Automobile techology has changed very little and autos have evolved very slowy for 100 years... most of the changes have been in styling and monitoring and control oif the mechanics and the interior environment. Cars dont last... they wear out. Software does not break and wear out. We are reaching a place where we feel compelled to produce more and more in less time. When will this end? I think it is unconscionable and unethical for the software companies to keep hitting up the old customers for "upgrades"... especially at the prices they are charging. I say.. let the NEW users pay the costs of the NEW products. We have ALREADY paid for the development of the upgrade. Where do you suppose the revenue came from to pay the development ocsts of the last release? Do you think that Neme went out and borrowed millions of high cost capital to develop their upgrade? I seriously doubt it. I hasten to point out that Bill Gates became the rigchest man in America in the span of 15 yrs selling software and a whole slew of others did very well. I do not begrudge these dudes from making some dough... but I am saying that someone is making too much and every couple of years they pass out the hat to us and expect us to ante up again... usually for something we hardly need or have done well without for several years. I think these software companies have created a huge mouth to feed.. or many of them and expect everyone to act like lemmings and rush out to keep up with the "latest" thing and spend more. I am tired of all these monthly high tech comnunication and IT subsrciptions we are paying for.. cell phone, satellite, dsl, PDA, and and god knows what else. This post is not directed at the excellent tech staff but the guys in the big offices upstairs and the "MARKETING" genuises who are skilled at getting people to buy what they dont need.

Katie. Thanks for the suggestion and all the help... As far as that printing proiblem... I solved it by printing the file as 2 sheets instead on one... I also increeased the scale to get the drawing to fill up the D sheet better. without that... the file would just not print... It was 4+megs. Alss well that ends well.... I will see about a test drive...

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure what the logic is to charge registered users of older products different amounts to upgrade. I am one who bought vw9 immediately, had lots of problems and decided that I could not afford the upgrade as a result of lost time and dealing with bugs and fixes. I returned the product withina few weeks. I dont think I will ever upgrade unless I can run a demo of the product.. and I dont care if it prints.. I want to see how fast, stable and productive I can be in the upgraded environment. Once I have determined that the product is a real productivity tool, I will pay for the upgrade and get the printing features.. for example. Without a test drive, I will stick with what is working for us. The actual cost of an upgrade is not significant when compared with the issues dealing with the learning curve and negotiating around buggy software.

Doesnt work for my serial number. Why dont you just put up a little spread sheet with all the upgrade cost options... and drop the serial number thingy. What's the point? The price is secret or something?

thanks for the rules of entry... But why dont you drop the em dashes and the letters and numbers which may cause confusion and present the serial number in lower case so there is less confusion? I spose that would be too logical. I tried to find out the pricing upgrade from 8 and I was told by your software that my s# was invalid... but I got it right off the pull down menu in the program. What gives? Also... do you have a features list for all the VW issues so that we can see what we are getting... and do you have a list of known incompatibilaties and bugs for each issue in relation to Op sys and hardware platform. I think that more robust software requires hardware and op sys upgrades and these are ADDITIONAL costs in $ and time and have implications far beyond the basic purchase price... not to mention training and whatever it takes to get back up to the speed you were working at in the OLD environment. I believe that unless the software offers significant new features / tools it is not really a major upgrade and should be offered free. Removing bugs and making something operate faster in not an upgrade you should charge for.. just throwing in a tool or two would be a poor excuse if that is what you have done. So let's hear what the deal is. thanks

Your serial numbers stink. cant tell what are 1's or lower I's o's or 0's. Are they case sensitive? Why the hell don't you use lower case when you you use letters? I alsways have trouble entering your serial numbers.. What about the em dash.. is that part of the number or a space or do you even need the spaces? Can't you make that simple?

When you hatch with the attributes pallette, I dont think you can ungroup the hatch in 8.52. I am not sure about the menu hatch command.

Katie... I think you might try to scale a hatch in 8.52 by scaling the object. When I do it the object changes size... but the hatch stays the same. Essentially the hatch appears to be like what you see when you look through the object you choose to hatch. If you move the object.. the hatch pattern seems anchored to some unseen point. So if you create a brick pattern.. you cannot expect the bricks to start at a full brick for example... the only way to achieve this would be to move the object that has the brick hatch on the drawing until it aligns with a full brick. You can't turn a hatch into a collection of lines to group or do anything with. What IS a hatch?

Once created... can hatches be scaled in vw 8.52?