Georeferenced file collaboration - Export workflow

[Carol Reznor]

Hi

 

When preparing a vwx file with georeferencing for export to a DWG - which typical (proprietary) Vectorworks features should you remove to get a correct DWG?
First that comes to mind is: User Origin > Set User Origin to match the Georeferencing coordinate system

But what about 'Angle to True North' - can this be properly exported and interpreted by other software or does this need to be reset to 0?

Any thing else that could cause problems for a proper collaboration?

 

Any file workflow recommendations for that? for example: in your vwx file you work with an angle to True north, the viewports are made etc. Then you need to share your design with someone who works with different software. Knowing this person will send you his file back with additional information you need to integrate in your vwx file. Is it recommended to make a copy that you strip from these Vectorworks features or is there another work around?

Thanks!

 

Carol

[Art V]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:31 AM, Carol Reznor said:

When preparing a vwx file with georeferencing for export to a DWG - which typical (proprietary) Vectorworks features should you remove to get a correct DWG?

If set up properly, probably none.

 

 

On 10/29/2021 at 8:31 AM, Carol Reznor said:

Any thing else that could cause problems for a proper collaboration?

I would have to test again with VW2022, but VW tends to import DWG files based on its WCS (equal to VW's internal origin). I've run into issues when DWG users had used a (rotated) UCS that was not aligned with the WCS. So if you have to collaborate with someone from the DWG side then make sure the coordinates etc. are set up the same way.

 

In general I align all georeferenced data to the internal origing of VW and use rotated plans/views where necessary and unrotate before export.

The DWG side should preferably to the same, i.e. change any active UCS back to WCS when sending the file to you.

This way the changes of things ending up at the wrong location should be minimized. At least I never had issues roundtripping with DWG this way.

There are other issues with DWG roundtripping but those are not related to georeferencing and need to be fixed by VW improving some things with the dwg import/export.

 

Also make sure you are using the same units, some DWG users have a habit of drawing at scale instead of 1:1, e.g. their units are set to mm but they treat it as metres and therefore draw it at a 1:1000 scale. VW may think upon import that the drawings units are in mm and you end up having to fix it on your end.

 

If you have a need to strip elements etc. from the drawing, change coordinate origins etc. always work on a copy. There is no need to compromise your drawings because you have to export to DWG.

[Poot]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:31 AM, Carol Reznor said:

Hi

 

When preparing a vwx file with georeferencing for export to a DWG - which typical (proprietary) Vectorworks features should you remove to get a correct DWG?
First that comes to mind is: User Origin > Set User Origin to match the Georeferencing coordinate system

But what about 'Angle to True North' - can this be properly exported and interpreted by other software or does this need to be reset to 0?

Any thing else that could cause problems for a proper collaboration?

 

Any file workflow recommendations for that? for example: in your vwx file you work with an angle to True north, the viewports are made etc. Then you need to share your design with someone who works with different software. Knowing this person will send you his file back with additional information you need to integrate in your vwx file. Is it recommended to make a copy that you strip from these Vectorworks features or is there another work around?

Thanks!

 

Carol

I haven't done much exporting from VW back into AutoCAD, other than 3d contours taken from site models and simple geometry, which is pretty straightforward. Other than 3d elements (furniture, etc) which you would not want to export to someone working in 2d, it should be straightforward.

 

Exports, from any discipline, should always be true north to avoid problems. You can export with an internal project origin, which works without problems, but even when working with an agreed origin point and rotation angle this opens the doors to problems with certain programs. I always use a test file export at the start of projects, with the building footprint from the architects and simple landscape geometry to check with other disciplines if they align properly with their drawings. I would suggest doing this to avoid complications, as its very easy to do, and can clarify any issues very early on.

[line-weight]

I'm about to embark on trying to export a georeferenced file (to DWG or DXF). It's important that it is correct. My drawing has been georeferenced by the VW georeferencing tools which I don't entirely trust. It is not drawn with true north matching file north, so there is a rotation involved and it's this in particular I want to make sure is translated properly.

 

What's the best way to verify that what I've exported is correct - to re-import it back into VW and check everything is as expected? Or is there an external application that can be used?

 

Also, would it be normal when doing this to choose a couple of points in the model, and tell the recipient what co-ordinates these should have? So I say the corner of this building should be at X1, Y1, Z1 and the corner of this one at X2, Y2, Z2, and ask them to check that this is the case once they import?

[Poot]

On 10/30/2025 at 10:10 AM, line-weight said:

I'm about to embark on trying to export a georeferenced file (to DWG or DXF). It's important that it is correct. My drawing has been georeferenced by the VW georeferencing tools which I don't entirely trust. It is not drawn with true north matching file north, so there is a rotation involved and it's this in particular I want to make sure is translated properly.

 

What's the best way to verify that what I've exported is correct - to re-import it back into VW and check everything is as expected? Or is there an external application that can be used?

 

Also, would it be normal when doing this to choose a couple of points in the model, and tell the recipient what co-ordinates these should have? So I say the corner of this building should be at X1, Y1, Z1 and the corner of this one at X2, Y2, Z2, and ask them to check that this is the case once they import?

I believe there is an online DWG viewer from Autodesk you could use to check....but it has been awhile, and I think it might not be possible to check the coordinates of an object/geometry. Any other CAD program should do, but you should also be able to check by importing it into a clean VW file.

The georeferencing tools work - but there is room for user error, depending on how the file was set up, the same as it can be in AutoCAD or any other program that can deal with world coordinates.

I have received rotated drawings from architects, with an in-drawing site origin/compase rose that showed the rotation angle and allowed me to align it in my own drawing via snap and rotate....but this is a big no-no; any error at this stage is a huge liability. I asked them to resend their drawings, as its not my responsibility to create a drawing in non-world orientation. However, you can put in a symbol aligned with a given point in the site that is not being modified (e.g. SW corner of property line, or agreed upon point) where it shows a normal compass with north, as well as a line at the appropriate angle to rotate.

To make sure I understand: Did you draw your plan in a specific coordinate system with rotated orientation in your VW file, where you can return it to true north/0 degree rotation? 

[line-weight]

3 hours ago, Poot said:

To make sure I understand: Did you draw your plan in a specific coordinate system with rotated orientation in your VW file, where you can return it to true north/0 degree rotation? 

 

I actually inherited the file before working on it. It wasn't georeferenced at that point, and it was drawn at an angle that was convenient for the building, not aligned to true north. So I have made it georeferenced (to a particular system, british national grid) and this involves a non zero angle to true north. It's not a massive site, measures in the tens of metres, so I'm not worried about distortions from projection etc.

 

My basis for geolocating it is the original survey which has british national grid lines marked on it (it's in the drawing on its own layer as a 2d plan, originally imported as dwg)

[Poot]

My general strategy would be to have a clean file that I set the coordinate system, along with the project origin, and then import the drawing into that, along with the survey file separately. Not just for errors with projection/distortion, but to make sure it sits in the correct location. You could also just switch on the geoimage and see if its lining up correctly....and if it is, could be fine.

 

11 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

... it was drawn at an angle that was convenient for the building, not aligned to true north.

just to make sure I understand -the drawing/geometry needs to be rotated then to have it actually aligned in real-world? versus changing the plan rotation like below?



VW doesn't care what you have that angle set to, it will always export in true north with default settings. A symbol like i show can be used to then rotate the plan or geometry as needed....but I would definitely not be doing this in my own drawings since we need to work with surveys and real world (even if we havent set a coordinate system yet).

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/111701-angle-to-true-north/

However, you can try changing the Angle to True North in the georeferencing settings. Maybe @Benson Shaw or @Ben Beaumont came up with a workflow you are after. 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/103656-georeference-north/

I dont have too much time to set up a proper example file to test out how this all works...but there should be something along these lines.

 

Edited November 5 by Poot

[line-weight]

Thanks for your help @Poot.

 

Yes, I have set an "angle to true north" in the georeferencing settings - not in "plan rotation" which for this project just remains at 0.

 

In fact since I posted my enquiry on this thread I made a new one here asking about getting the correct rotation when using the "survey point" tool. I am now fairly happy I've got that right. Switching on a geoimage confirms that everything seems in the right place.

 

I've now sent my export to the person that needs to use it and we will use some check points (in plan and elevation) to try and make sure it's come out ok at their end.

[shorter]

Plan Rotation has no impact on DWG export, sadly.

There are a number of ways to achieve this.

 

1 Work 'survey north', use rotate plan, and a logical user origin to set the coordinate system.
2 Set Geo-referencing, and angle to 'true north', which works well for one building but not multiple buildings, in 3D, all referenced with different georeferencing settings.
3 Export a viewport aligned to the correct angle, with user origin setting the coordinate system.  Viewports can be bound on export.  Bit more risky this one as you need a reliable way to locate the viewport.

One thing to note is that we have found that Revit does not like DWGs with geo-referencing if the geo-referencing is anything other than WGS84.  Don't be surprised if the DWG is misaligned in Revit.

4 Alternatively you issue everything align to local coordinate and screen orientation and give instructions to the recipient on the coordinate and rotation angle for the xref of your file on placement and they 'specify on screen' when they place the xref.

5 ....any more?
 

[Ben Beaumont]

@Carol Reznor I can offer the following: 

Plan rotation doesn't do anything other than pick your monitor up and rotate it so you don't need to crank your head. 

At least for Australia*, this is how we do it: 

1. Establish your geolocation at a logical and known (pivot) point in the vicinity of your project. [Record the Lat/Long or Easting/Northing values separately.] 

1 (a). Align your User Origin with the Internal Origin (the same pivot point above). [Cleverly Vectorworks holds the geo-location of the project in the background. It is only revealed with some tools like the Geo Stake]. 

2. Set your angle precision very high, establish a useful 'project north' rotation and then use that angle as your Angle to True North (will rotate about the pivot point above). [Record this value separately.] 

2 (a). Work on your project. 

3. Prior to exporting back to .dwg, momentarily (ie; save prior, then revert to save afterwards) scrub the Angle to True North value and set the User Origin to match the georef. coordinate system. 

Vectorworks will write the User Orgin as the Internal Origin of the resulting exported .dwg file plus the rotation will be true to the source file/s. 

 

I hope that helps. I'm happy to assist further as required. 

 

*In Australia, the wider industry uses the very distant map grid datums of our map zones (which occur in Antarctica). ie; the Internal Origin of an incoming .dwg file (eg; a survey file) actually uses the datum of the grid zone. It's a simple method that serves our industry well - except for the floating point errors that can get introduced with such vast distances. 

[Nina Ivanova]

18 hours ago, shorter said:

Plan Rotation has no impact on DWG export, sadly.

Plan Rotation is supported on DWG export.

 

You cannot check this, however, with re-importing back the created DWG file - we do not set Plan Rotation on import.

 

The funny thing is that AutoDesk viewer ignores plan rotation too. Please, see attached images - Vectorworks document, exported file opened in AutoCAD and same file opened with AutoDesk viewer.

 

  

[line-weight]

8 minutes ago, Nina Ivanova said:

Plan Rotation is supported on DWG export.

You mean plan rotation as in the rotating of plan view for convenience of drawing, rather than the "angle to true north" that's part of a proper geolocation setup - is that right?

[Poot]

25 minutes ago, line-weight said:

You mean plan rotation as in the rotating of plan view for convenience of drawing, rather than the "angle to true north" that's part of a proper geolocation setup - is that right?

Looks to be so. I guess we (who are not working with ACAD) cant see that it comes in correctly within autocad. Not sure if this works then for REVIT, or other nonVW software.

 

[line-weight]

I'm now unclear about whether it's just this "plan rotation" that does come through or whether the geolocation "angle to true north" also comes through.

 

The "plan rotation" seems unimportant because surely that can just be done in the destination software according to user preferences.

 

But the correct rotation for geolocation, that does seem important. If that's lost in a dwg export (hopefully it's not) then what's actually the point of setting up georeferencing in VW at all?

Edited November 6 by line-weight

[line-weight]

10 hours ago, Ben Beaumont said:

1. Establish your geolocation at a logical and known (pivot) point in the vicinity of your project. [Record the Lat/Long or Easting/Northing values separately.] 

1 (a). Align your User Origin with the Internal Origin (the same pivot point above). [Cleverly Vectorworks holds the geo-location of the project in the background. It is only revealed with some tools like the Geo Stake]. 

2. Set your angle precision very high, establish a useful 'project north' rotation and then use that angle as your Angle to True North (will rotate about the pivot point above). [Record this value separately.] 

2 (a). Work on your project. 

3. Prior to exporting back to .dwg, momentarily (ie; save prior, then revert to save afterwards) scrub the Angle to True North value and set the User Origin to match the georef. coordinate system. 

Vectorworks will write the User Orgin as the Internal Origin of the resulting exported .dwg file plus the rotation will be true to the source file/s. 

I don't understand what's going on here. It seems like you are using "angle to true north" in georeferencing settings to rotate the drawing to a convenient angle for working on it, instead of the "plan rotation" function, which (as I understand it) is the function that's intended for this purpose.

I may be misunderstanding though.

 

[Tom W.]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I don't understand what's going on here. It seems like you are using "angle to true north" in georeferencing settings to rotate the drawing to a convenient angle for working on it, instead of the "plan rotation" function, which (as I understand it) is the function that's intended for this purpose.

I may be misunderstanding though.

 

 

Angle to True North rotates the globe underlay only, not the drawing geometry. It means you can model a building square to the X/Y axes initially then rotate the globe to suit, rather than having to subsequently rotate all the geometry to match the globe (I mean by selecting the geometry + using the Rotate tool).

 

Rotate Plan rotates everything: the drawing geometry, the globe underlay + the user origin grid (rulers).

 

I never use Angle to True North. I always model with north pointing north + use Rotate Plan + Saved Views to change the orientation of the file depending on what I'm doing at any particular time + how I want things to look for that activity.

[line-weight]

3 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Angle to True North rotates the globe underlay only, not the drawing geometry. It means you can model a building square to the X/Y axes initially then rotate the globe to suit, rather than having to subsequently rotate all the geometry to match the globe (I mean by selecting the geometry + using the Rotate tool).

 

Rotate Plan rotates everything: the drawing geometry, the globe underlay + the user origin grid (rulers).

Yes, this matches my understanding. This is why I don't understand why you'd use "rotate angle to true north" while working on the drawing and then revert it for export.

[line-weight]

6 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Rotate Plan rotates everything: the drawing geometry, the globe underlay + the user origin grid (rulers).

Actually, isn't it that it rotates everything relative to the user origin grid. So it either rotates everything *except* the user origin grid or it rotates *only* the user origin grid, depending on your frame of reference.

 

Or an alternative way to see it is that it temporarily creates a new, rotated user grid that exists for as long as you want to use it. You can always go back to the default one.

[Tom W.]

11 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Actually, isn't it that it rotates everything relative to the user origin grid. So it either rotates everything *except* the user origin grid or it rotates *only* the user origin grid, depending on your frame of reference.

 

Or an alternative way to see it is that it temporarily creates a new, rotated user grid that exists for as long as you want to use it. You can always go back to the default one.

 

Well I think when you use Rotate Plan your geometry ends up with two sets of coordinates relative to the User Origin: the 'actual' X/Y coordinates of the object stay the same but you are given additional screen X/Y coordinates reflecting the rotation... The rulers turn blue to indicate the fact they are displaying the screen coordinates. But ultimately I mean that the drawing geometry hasn't actually moved anywhere, you've just rotated the monitor/drawing board like @Ben Beaumont says. I think this is probably essentially what you're saying too.

 

 

[line-weight]

1 minute ago, Tom W. said:

 

Well I think when you use Rotate Plan your geometry ends up with two sets of coordinates relative to the User Origin: the 'actual' X/Y coordinates of the object stay the same but you are given additional screen X/Y coordinates reflecting the rotation... The rulers turn blue to indicate the fact they are displaying the screen coordinates. But ultimately I mean that the drawing geometry hasn't actually moved anywhere, you've just rotated the monitor/drawing board like @Ben Beaumont says. I think this is probably essentially what you're saying too.

 

 

It is yes.

[shorter]

8 hours ago, Nina Ivanova said:

Plan Rotation is supported on DWG export.

 

You cannot check this, however, with re-importing back the created DWG file - we do not set Plan Rotation on import.

 

The funny thing is that AutoDesk viewer ignores plan rotation too. Please, see attached images - Vectorworks document, exported file opened in AutoCAD and same file opened with AutoDesk viewer.

 

  

 

@Nina Ivanova So it isn't a physical rotation of data, just the view.  The XY icon would not be rotated if the objects were actually rotated relative to the normal X Y axes?

 

 

[shorter]

You may be pleased, and unsurpirsed to know that rotate view does not result in physically rotated objects in Revit, which suggests this is not a method by which to export a building drawn in 'screen alignment' in 'true north'.

So, I stick by my comment...

Plan Rotation is NOT supported on DWG export.

If it were then we could export true north while working in 'project north', like Revit, or like VW IFC export settings.

Here is a simple test...

 

Two screenshots.

One from AutoCAD of DWG exported from VW file with RP of 12.34 degrees.

The other is the same DWG linked into Revit.
 

Edited November 6 by shorter

[line-weight]

2 hours ago, shorter said:

You may be pleased, and unsurpirsed to know that rotate view does not result in physically rotated objects in Revit, which suggests this is not a method by which to export a building drawn in 'screen alignment' in 'true north'.

This is exactly what I'd expect, because that's not the intended purpose of rotated views. 

 

I'm not sure what the two screenshots tell us other than that acad and revit are making different choices about how to display the same data. What matters is that true north, relative to the building, is the same in each case - is it (there's no way to tell from the screenshots)?

[Poot]

14 hours ago, shorter said:

You may be pleased, and unsurpirsed to know that rotate view does not result in physically rotated objects in Revit, which suggests this is not a method by which to export a building drawn in 'screen alignment' in 'true north'.

So, I stick by my comment...

Plan Rotation is NOT supported on DWG export.

If it were then we could export true north while working in 'project north', like Revit, or like VW IFC export settings.
 

 

I think Revit is just e with coordinates; it is not a program that has native georeferencing or capacity for drawings to be in world coordinates whether rotated or not.

As far as I understand, its really only working to align with other software (even autodesk software like ACAD) via survey points....which is their workaround. Perhaps thats a reason why VW has updated the survey stake tools to play better with Revit. 

[shorter]

Playing with Revit was never a problem per se.  Don't need survey points, etc.  Just need a plan.

 

The problem playing with revit is generally down to perception and attitudes.