references, title blocks and sheet layers

[eas]

Newish to VW and really new to sheet layers.

Initially as I organized a new set of drawings I planned to reference in a title block drawing on to my new sheet layer. (In the past this office has referenced title blocks into a drawing layer for a WYSIWYG layout.)

It does not seem to work, references always go to design layers. I did a couple of searches in the forum and haven't found anything.

How to people like to organize their 12.5 drawing sets? Is there another approach that might work better? Or is it possible to do a workgroup reference into a sheet layer?

thanks

[Guest]

If you have a title block that you are going to use over and over again, the better approach is to create a drawing template with the title block (and any other frequently used symbols/resources) in the file. When new projects are started, create a project from the new file.

If you are in the middle of a project, you can reference just a symbol, not the whole file. This allows you to place the referenced symbol on the sheet layer, as you wish to do.

[You can find more info about this by searching "Reference Symbols or Reference Resources in the online help system]

Otherwise, referencing the "old fashioned" way requires you to reference in entire design layer(s) and use the objects accordingly.

[eas]

Thanks for the suggestion.

This may be where my unfamiliarity with VW is a problem. Will a symbol update? I would not expect it to and that is probably the most important reason we use referenced files--if one thing changes on the title block we can change it one time not fifty or more, depending on how many sheets there are in a set. Likewise, using a template file with the title block in it would seem to have the same problem.

The goal is to make this idiot proof. And what your response tells me is that to use referenced title blocks we are not going to be able to take advantage of the sheet layers. Is that right?

Advice much appreciated.

[Guest]

If the title block changes frequently, then a template file is the best option. You change it in one centralized location.

The template file could be stored on the network and accessed from there.

When a symbol is referenced, it's just like referencing a layer. You edit it in one location and it's updated everywhere else.

If the symbol changes, then import the symbol into the drawing again and replace the existing. All instances of the title block symbol would then be updated with the new symbol. Like I said before, you may want to read up on the referencing capabilities of symbols in the VW Help to get a better understanding of what it does.

If you reference just a title block symbol, not an entire layer, you place the symbol on all the sheet and/or design layers you want.

When the symbol is changed, the change will be reflected in each placed instance of the symbol.

Are you frequently changing the title block?

[Petri]

I think this is more about title block content than what it looks like. With sheet layers it is somewhat complicated to get the titleblock data (held in a data record) from working files via WGR to a "master file" and there on sheet layers.

Now, I am not quite sure if this is a good way to manage issuing of drawings, but that is just my view. Besides, I may understand the situation entirely wrong.

[Jonathan Pickup]

It?s important for you to get some basic concepts sorted now. If you start off using VectorWorks badly, then you will create a drawing system in VectorWorks that is not efficient, and may become unworkable in the future.

The title block should be a symbol and you should use the drawing border command to place the symbol on the drawing. This will allow you to edit the title block contents easily.

[eas]

Thanks for the suggestions.

My new office has just moved to 12.5 from 10.5, which has been used as a basic 2D drafting program. There are essentially no standards and every project has been structured by the particular project architect. This has resulted in some very messy/confused/inconsistent drawing sets. We are working to get a better system set up in 12.5 taking more advantage of the new tools. (When I read Petri's message I am reminded how much of the VW capability we are just not using in this office.) It would be nice if there were someone in charge of this but we are all muddling along together.

All a long way of saying I don't know how VW works best but am determined to learn.

What Jonathan is warning of is exactly what I am trying to avoid.

It will be a balancing act between setting up a simple system that anyone new to VW can work in while using the special characteristics that make VW a good tool. I will read through the manual on symbols and see if we can make that work.

Luckily there is a long weekend coming.

I may have more questions next week . . .

[Jodyb17]

It?s important for you to get some basic concepts sorted now. If you start off using VectorWorks badly, then you will create a drawing system in VectorWorks that is not efficient, and may become unworkable in the future.

The title block should be a symbol and you should use the drawing border command to place the symbol on the drawing. This will allow you to edit the title block contents easily.

Wouldn't inserting the title block as a symbol require editing each file that has the sybmol in it to update the title block for the drawing set? Is there a way of referencing symbols similar to a workgroup in which updating is automatic?

Thanks,

Jody

[Guest]

Yes, you can reference symbols using VW 12.x.

Reference the user's guide or only help using "Reference" as the key word.

[Jodyb17]

Thanks Katie,

I was able to figure it out. VWHelp was no help as usual, but knowing it was possible helped alot. It seems to me that the process to reference a symbol is pretty convoluted. It would be much more intuitive if it were a command similar to Workgroup Reference.

I am unable to figure out how to get the Drawing Border tool to function (ie., Edit Title Block and other options in the Object Info pallette) with our office's title block. I probably need a tutorial in symbol creation to get that to work. This is not such a big deal as long as the symbol updates, and it does.

Thanks a bunch,

Jody

[Guest]

I'm missing something - you find the file through the RB - either load it in as a favorite or just browser for the file, right click on the symbol and select reference. What's convoluted about it?

[Guest]

If you search for "reference", the 5th item down declares workgroup and resource referencing. The article is called "Referencing Resources" and explains how to right click on a resource in the Resource Browser.

To ensure the user's guide is more helpful, providing feedback stating what was not helpful, or even suggestion additional information to be added, about an article is something we can improve - once we get the information. Unfortunately, making statements like "The user's guide is not helpful" usually doesn't help us understand what needs improvement.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Katie

[Guest]

To get your own custom symbol (or simply just the information in the symbol) to be used with the Drawing Border Title Block addition, edit the default content library file that stores the title block symbols. Edit one of the symbols in this file via the RB with the file open, add/fill in your information, exit the symbol edit, save the file, and close the file. Without relaunching VW, you can access the changes to the title block.

These are found in the VectorWorks 12.x\Libraries\Defaults

[Jodyb17]

I'm missing something - you find the file through the RB - either load it in as a favorite or just browser for the file, right click on the symbol and select reference. What's convoluted about it?

Katie,

First, let me preface by saying that I am new to Vectorworks and the Mac environment. My difficulty probably stems from an unfamiliarity with the Resource Browser in VW.

I guess it is convoluted to me because the process for referencing a symbol is wholly different from referencing a workgroup. Conceptually, at least to me, these commands result in a similar desired effect. Beyond that, having a command that was obtained by "Tools > Symbol Referencing" doesn't get any more direct.

Ideally, the program would allow workgroup referencing within a sheet layer. Having sheet layers is great, but I do not understand why referencing within sheet layers should work differently from design layers.

Jody

[Guest]

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

The two referencing commands are similar yet very different, too.

Anything that has to do with an individual resource is always handled through the Resource Browser. This may or may not be clear in the training material and user's guide.

Workgroup referencing handles actual components of a file, including layer and class structure. The benefit here is multiple people can work on multiple files and see the changes made in the files as they work. The reference can be automatic or manual, and the reference can be broken or deleted at any time. This is nice when you want to reference information in, but not keep a dynamic link between two files, just read the information temporarily - such as in large site work development plans, or allow multiple people to work on different components of a file all at the same time.

Resource referencing is used when an office standard is in place and a particular resource should not be edited - either for code purposes, office standards, or project specs where multiple files are used.

The benefit to resource referencing is that the resource cannot be edited when referenced into a file - it can only be edited in the file that owns the resource. I call this file the keeper of the gate, or master file (VW terms).

There are a few other case by case situations where you would use resource referencing. These fall in a situation where you want information in a specific file to show up on a sheet layer without referencing the entire layer the object exists on.

The basic difference between the two is workgroup referencing handles sections of a file for sharing purposes and resource referencing handles very specific components within a file for repeat usage. Workgroup referencing sometimes gives you more than you need and resource referencing just gives you the snipit you need.

If anyone is confidant that a symbol will not be edited (accidentally or on purpose in a specific file), then there's no use for symbol referencing. The other situation where symbol referencing is not used is when there's only one person in the office.

In both of these situations, I'd store the symbol as a favorite in the resource browser or even as part of a template file.

I hope this helps more than it further adds to confusion. If I can help iron any of this out, please let me know. You are welcome to email me offlist, too.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Katie

[Jodyb17]

If you search for "reference", the 5th item down declares workgroup and resource referencing. The article is called "Referencing Resources" and explains how to right click on a resource in the Resource Browser.

To ensure the user's guide is more helpful, providing feedback stating what was not helpful, or even suggestion additional information to be added, about an article is something we can improve - once we get the information. Unfortunately, making statements like "The user's guide is not helpful" usually doesn't help us understand what needs improvement.

Katie,

Again let me preface, but this time it is that I have never found a helpful help menu in any program. I am always amazed but never surprised by this fact.

I literally stumbled onto getting the symbol referencing to work, but after I know how, I see that in this instance (with an understanding of the "program vocabulary") "Referencing Resources" does describe the process. That being said, I have yet been able to use the help command for VW without help from this forum. I have alot of experience with computers and many different programs (cad and otherwise), but I have to say that learning VW has been the most difficult to date.

The help menu for VW would more helpful if it were in a step by step format supplemented with screenshots. Also, ( I know this may seem redundant), but there should be a separate index items for each iteration of a command. For instance, to learn how to reference a sybmbol, I think most people would type "reference symbol" or "symbol reference". With this search, "Referencing Resources" is not an option. If the description of referencing a symbol was used, rather than the catch all of "resources" I probably would have made the connection.

If the help menu stated directly that the user must create a file, create a symbol in the file, activate the target file in the resource browser, then click on the little down arrow thingy in the resource browser (found this by accident), select "browse", then right click and pick reference, then go back to the symbol pallete in the target file.... I think I might have figured it out more quickly.

I suppose I am really looking for a tutorial...and I will probably end up buying one in the near future.

Also, the help menu does not mention that the file with the symbol being referenced must be in the same folder as the target file...

As always, thanks for your dilligence and patience.

Jody

[Jodyb17]

I hope this helps more than it further adds to confusion. If I can help iron any of this out, please let me know. You are welcome to email me offlist, too.

Your explanation does help. I see the value in referencing repeat snipits rather than the whole file/layer. I would say that the ability to workgroup reference within sheet layers as well as design layers would only increase VW's flexibility.

Jody

Edited January 11, 2007 by Jodyb17

[Guest]

If the purpose to reference Sheet Layers is to get a "copy" of the layer and class visibility, scale, view, etc., the eyedropper tool does this.

If the purpose to reference Sheet Layers is to get the data in sheet layers, you need the data composing the sheet layers, so you'd still need the layer links - it's the way VW works for now.

If the purpose to reference Sheet Layers is to do both in one step, that's a wish list that's currently quite popular and being considered for future development. We also have on the wish list the ability to reference the annotations, crop, and any other "Edit VP" settings from one file to another - or have the eyedropper tool do this function.

Your feedback on the help system is very useful. I will forward it to the necessary team members.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Katie

[Guest]

We will have a vLearning (webcast or eCourse or webinar) on workgroup referencing sometime soon. You can read the current information on this initiative here:

http://www.nemetschek.net/training/webinars.php

[Don@Black Dog]

Katie, I like the idea of editing a title block with unchanging info as a new symbol (actually, it was an "oh, duh" moment). I was trying to find out how to do global changes to a set's titleblock information to avoid typing in my firms info a doxzen times (having forgotten to make a template file) and that will help.

It would still be helpful to be able to do project-wide changes to title block information in one location, maybe in Document Settings.

[eas]

Okay, so I have set up my project with design layers, sheet layers and a nicely referenced symbol for the title block. Very nice.

But, I tried exporting to dwg and opening it in AutoCad to make sure it would work. (Most of our clients require as builts in dwg format so this conversion is important).

Everything seems fine _except_ that my titleblock does not seem to come along for the ride. The dwg has model space and a nice sheet layer with the viewport but somehow the titleblock symbol has gone. I did a search for similar problems in the forums and didn't find anything.

Any thoughts on what might be causing this?

[Jodyb17]

Okay, so I have set up my project with design layers, sheet layers and a nicely referenced symbol for the title block. Very nice.

But, I tried exporting to dwg and opening it in AutoCad to make sure it would work. (Most of our clients require as builts in dwg format so this conversion is important).

Everything seems fine _except_ that my titleblock does not seem to come along for the ride. The dwg has model space and a nice sheet layer with the viewport but somehow the titleblock symbol has gone. I did a search for similar problems in the forums and didn't find anything.

Any thoughts on what might be causing this?

I am not sure what would cause your problem, but it probably has to do with the fact that the symbol is in separate file.

Another way to get your desired result would be to create a file for your drawing border with title block, workgroup reference that into a design layer of your plan drawing, and then for each of your sheet layers use a viewport for your drawing border and another for your plan information.

I cannot test here at the office since we don't have autocad. Let me know how it turns out. I think this is the method we will be using in the office rather than referencing symbols.

Somebody speak up if this could cause issues, we have a little case of the blind leading the blind here I think...

Jody

[Jodyb17]

We will have a vLearning (webcast or eCourse or webinar) on workgroup referencing sometime soon. You can read the current information on this initiative here:

http://www.nemetschek.net/training/webinars.php

The webinar topics look great, is there somewhere that I could find a schedule of when they will be held?