Quantity take off approach for materials processing in renovation projects

[dvdvarch]

Hi to all, 

In Vectorworks it is easy to count quantities of elements, such as, plaster, concrete, tiles... 

 

But sometimes (very often in my case), to estimate the cost of a project we need to count multiple works done on each component.

 

I.e. in a renovation project I could have (I hope my english is clear enough, I couldn'f find the exact translation for such specific processes):

- partial removal of old plaster and refilling of holes

- consolidation of existing plaster

- fixative anti dust primer

- three coats o paint

 

all done on the same wall

 

I would like to have your advice and experiences in the best way to count non-material processes.

 

I hope I have been able to explain clearly.

 

Thank you!

[Tom W.]

Could you create Materials for these elements then apply them to the relevant Wall components as Compound Materials?

 

Compound Materials can contain as many Simple Materials as you want + you can apply different percentages to the sub-Materials to determine how they are reported on: you can set the 'anti-dust primer' sub-Material to return 100% of the m2, the 'paint' sub-Material to return 300%'. You could create a 'patch-repair existing plaster' sub-Material + set this to return 100% or whatever percentage of the wall needs repairing. So in this way, a single Wall Component can return multiple quantities, both actual materials (m2 of paint + primer) plus labour items (m2 of plaster to be patch-repaired).

 

This is probably how I'd approach it: create different Compound Materials for the different wall treatments then apply them to the individual Walls in the model as required. I think it would work?

[dvdvarch]

Good idea, Tom! I was thinking to add fake wall components, but they must have a thickness so it doesn't work.

I am not used to material tool so it didn't come to my mind.

 

What do you think would be the best way to apply these "non-material works" compuond materials to walls? to transform walls in non-styled wall and apply materials? To create a wall style+material for each work combination may multiply wall styles number.

 

bytheway

I have done a quick test and for now I couldn't get quantities, I am probably missing something

 

 

thank you for your suggestions

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

12 minutes ago, dvdvarch said:

What do you think would be the best way to apply these "non-material works" compuond materials to walls? to transform walls in non-styled wall and apply materials? To create a wall style+material for each work combination may multiply wall styles number.

 

I would create Simple Materials (i.e. standard Materials) for each of the different products/materials you want to apply to your Walls + each of the different 'actions' (e.g. patch-repair existing plaster) you want to carry out on them.

 

Then I would combine them into various Compound Materials depending on the different combinations of things you need to do to the walls in the building: I don't know this as you only give one example in your post but hopefully it would only be 2 or 3 different Compound Materials?

 

And how you then apply them in the model depends again on the particular circumstances. It may be that you have a generic Wall style that you apply throughout, then where particular Walls in the model need to deviate from that you unstyle those Walls + override the Material applied to the inner finish component in those specific cases. or you could just have 2 or 3 wall styles + use whichever one is relevant each time. Whatever works best. At the end of the day, a style is just a convenient way of saving a set of settings so it's not necessary a big deal to unstyle them all after placement + edit them in situ as you need them.

 

20 minutes ago, dvdvarch said:

I have done a quick test and for now I couldn't get quantities, I am probably missing something

 

I use a criteria report not a database report. Something like the 'Material take-off by category' preformatted report in the libraries. You enter the Material name in the first column + it returns the quantities (+ whatever else you want) in the subsequent columns. Allows you to do your own maths on the figures like convert m2 into number of bricks or m2 into bags of plaster or whatever.

 

As far as your report not returning values, in your Material settings do you have 'report as volume' + 'report as component area' enabled in the 'Construction' tab...?

 

Otherwise maybe post a file...?

[dvdvarch]

Thank you Tom,

I have attached a portion of the project. I have created two base materials and one compound material and I have applied it to m51 wall style.

 

27 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

As far as your report not returning values, in your Material settings do you have 'report as volume' + 'report as component area' enabled in the 'Construction' tab...?

 

They were both selected, I have now turned on only "by area" since I need only areas. But still I don't see quantities in the reports

 

I think that I have found the report you are talking about (they are two, actually, spreadsheet and database, not sure what is the difference). They are able to find the materials but still don't count quantities.

Plus, it looks like a long process to manually exactly write material names in cells. I would need a report that massively reports all used materials and their quantities since the project is quite complex.

 

thank you!

QT setup.vwx

[Pat Stanford]

A different option would be a Record format that you could attached to the walls that would include a value for each of the different categories.

 

That way you would not end up with a large number of different materials that you have to keep organized and apply to the walls.

[Tom W.]

57 minutes ago, dvdvarch said:

Thank you Tom,

I have attached a portion of the project. I have created two base materials and one compound material and I have applied it to m51 wall style.

 

 

They were both selected, I have now turned on only "by area" since I need only areas. But still I don't see quantities in the reports

 

I think that I have found the report you are talking about (they are two, actually, spreadsheet and database, not sure what is the difference). They are able to find the materials but still don't count quantities.

Plus, it looks like a long process to manually exactly write material names in cells. I would need a report that massively reports all used materials and their quantities since the project is quite complex.

 

thank you!

QT setup.vwx 10.3 MB · 1 download

 

You didn't seem to have the 'Wall Patch Recovery' Material assigned to any of the Wall Components... I assigned it to the two Wall Styles + now we get:

 

It is returning the surface area for objects using that Material. You didn't have any objects that were using it.

 

The spreadsheet version of the worksheet (criteria report) just means you are telling it which specific Materials you want it to report on + you can apply specific criteria in each case plus like I say, run extra calculations on the areas/volumes returned to convert it into units, add something for wastage, etc

 

I have a master worksheet in my favourites with all of my Materials already on it so easy enough to bring it into a new file, delete the rows that aren't relevant + do whatever else I need to do to it. I just copy + paste in the Material name from the RM.

 

[dvdvarch]

1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

A different option would be a Record format that you could attached to the walls that would include a value for each of the different categories.

 

That way you would not end up with a large number of different materials that you have to keep organized and apply to the walls.

 

You are right Pat, they could actually be hundreds. (in an ideal world they shoul also be linked to a databese with standard codes and descriptions).

In your hipotesis how could I apply multiple works on the same wall?

maybe I could do a record format like with, let's say, five or six items:

 

work code1,

work description1,

work code2,

work description2,

work code3,

...

 

would you mean something like that? what do you think?

 

thank you!

 

 

53 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

You didn't have any objects that were using it.

Yes! I forgot to flag  "use material", measurment now works. thank you for checking it

[Pat Stanford]

The Code1/Description1 format will be difficult to work with in the built in VW Worksheet because databases effectively need to have one field per column.  So if one person used Code 1 for 3 coats of paint and someone else used it for Consolidation of Plaster, then in the worksheet those would end up in the same column.

 

It would be better to have a record with "all" the possible categories as names and just use the fields that you need. You can set up the criteria as something like:

 

'MyWallRecord'.'3 Coats of Paint' Is not Blank.

 

Actually I think I would actually recommend using three fields for each option.  The Code, The Description, and a boolean Check Box for Use this for this wall.

 

I think you can only have a maximum of 255 fields in a record, so you may have to separate our different records for different way types.

 

Also, note that in this workflow the data that is attached to a given wall is what is stored in the record format when it is attached to the wall. If you later go back and edit the Record Format those changes do not propagate to the individual walls. Similarly, if you edit the data attached to a single wall (say to fix a typo you found), that data will not flow back to the Record format for future use.

 

HTH

[dvdvarch]

1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

data that is attached to a given wall is what is stored in the record format when it is attached to the wal

I got it, this could be a problem, it may happen often to improve work descriptions. Also, my work list is has actually 600 items, but I could divide them per type, i.e. constructions, demolitions, etc. 

 

but then, how to link area properties to each "true" line of the record format? should I make a criteria for each item? 

 

I would like to have a kind of a simple "tag" to attach to any item 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by dvdvarch

[dvdvarch]

Now I am trying to use data stored into materials, but I cannot find the material id formula.

I see that it is used in the "materials by category" report, but how can I use that formula to populate a column?

 

 

I cannot find "material id" in the fields that can be added to a report, see below:

 

 

 

 

Again, I hope I have been able to explain what I mean, 

Thank you!

Edited October 20, 2023 by dvdvarch

[Tom W.]

6 minutes ago, dvdvarch said:

Now I am trying to use data stored into materials, but I cannot find the material id formula.

I see that it is used in the "materials by category" report, but how can I use that formula to populate a column?

 

 

I cannot find "material id" in the fields that can be added to a report.

 

Again, I hope I have been able to explain what I mean, 

Thank you!

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. The formula in your screenshot will return this field in the Material settings:

 

Here are the functions for all the other property names:

 

[dvdvarch]

Thank you very much Tom, from your attachement I understood how to properly format formulas for materials, now I am trying to make a worksheet to have all columns I need

 

 

The only limit to this system looks like the necessity to manually make a lot of materials, I would like to be able to batch a long list of them (I have them on excel and filemaker database) 

 

p.s where are those formula list stored? are them available online?

Edited October 20, 2023 by dvdvarch

[dvdvarch]

I feel to be close, or at least "closer" to my goal. May I ask you another advice?

How to exclude compound materials to be listed in the worksheet? at the end I only need what is inside them. I couldn't find a criteria to exclude compound materials but only materials in general.

 

Thank you again!

[dvdvarch]

I hope I am not posting too many questions... is it possible to attach materials to space tools?

the question may sound odd but I thought that this system may replace the old "room finish" 

what do you think?

[Tom W.]

9 hours ago, dvdvarch said:

p.s where are those formula list stored? are them available online?

 

See link on Help page: https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2023/eng/VW2023_Guide/Worksheets/Worksheet_functions.htm

 

 

 

8 hours ago, dvdvarch said:

How to exclude compound materials to be listed in the worksheet? at the end I only need what is inside them. I couldn't find a criteria to exclude compound materials but only materials in general.

 

The database worksheets search for all Materials in the file: so not only the Simple Materials but all the Compound Materials as well (as you have found) plus even worse, any unused Materials you happen to have in the Resource Manager. See my note earlier re using a spreadsheet worksheet (criteria report) instead: then you can be very specific + just produce a report on for example timber quantities or masonry quantities or whatever. Plus do whatever else you need to do with the initial data returned.

 

For example:

 

4 hours ago, dvdvarch said:

I hope I am not posting too many questions... is it possible to attach materials to space tools?

the question may sound odd but I thought that this system may replace the old "room finish" 

what do you think?

 

No you can't do this. And I personally don't think it would be appropriate/useful but I see where you're coming from. There are options for reporting on Walls (+ Slabs/Roofs) + their Components based on the Space they are in but I have not really gone too far with it. See this thread:

 

 

I think it works well with Slabs (i.e. for reporting floor finish) because a Slab is one-sided so to speak, but with Walls it gets tricky because there is no way to differentiate between the inside finish component + the outside finish component. But like I say I haven't really explored this too much so I could be wrong.

 

Good luck!

[dvdvarch]

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

plus even worse, any unused Materials

Yes, I have found it, and it looks that they are insensible to criteria such as layer+class or whatever. I'm understanding that Material is a kind of an abstract entity, with no location, only objects has locations, but actually a construction work is a combination of material+manpower. 

 

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

And I personally don't think it would be appropriate

Probably you are right.

 

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

with Walls it gets tricky because there is no way to differentiate between the inside finish component

Yes, I found this too! I was breaking all my nice styled walls to insert compound materials with the feeling that I am fragmenting and breaking everything, having then to check wall orientation for each little piece (you have seen it, here in in Italy we deal with old historical walls).

 

And, the final discover, I am struggling to understand how to link materials to a location (it doesn't look like I can use the "inside" function, correct?). Plus, a wall, usually, is inbetween two rooms... 

 

what I would need is a simple ( 🙂 )  table with a few columns: id, work/material, quantity, Room, Floor, Building; for everything, all formatted in the same way, project items, doors, windows, restoration of existing walls (that's the tricky part), paints, ceilings (?), floors... 

 

Tom, I'm spending a week to build a system in Vectorworks and I really don't want to make it traditionally with a calculator on my desk, an external quantity take off software nor Excel. I would like now to build a system that I can use in the future for this project changes and for other projects!

 

Thank you!

Edited October 21, 2023 by dvdvarch

[Pat Stanford]

There is a way to set a database by a Script instead of just by the available Criteria. By doing this you can put almost any combination of objects into a database.

 

But when you do this the Script is responsible for all the sorting of data. You can't use the Sort functions on individual columns. The order the script puts the objects into the database is what you get.  I am not certain about the ability to SUMmarize, but I don't think you can do that either.

 

I am relatively certain that a DatabaseByScript script could be (depending on what you want it to do) fairly simple and I am certain that you could return only Simple or only Complex Materials. There is a script function called IsMaterialSimple that returns a boolean value.

 

The following script will return just the Simple Materials in a file sorted alphabetically.

 

Create a database row using any criteria.  Right click on the database header row and choose Edit Database Formula.  Replace the existing formula in the Formula bar with:

 

=DatabaseByScript('SimpleMats')  or whatever you name the script instead of SimpleMats and hit Return.

 

Click Alway Run Scripts in the permissions dialog box that opens.

You should now have blank database rows for each simple material in the file.  In one of the column header cells enter a formula of =N to see the names of the materials.  Put whatever other column formulas you want in.

 

Procedure SimpleMats;
{©2023  Pat Stanford - pat@coviana.com}
{licensed under the Boost Software License 1.0}
{https://github.com/boostorg/boost/blob/master/LICENSE_1_0.txt}
{TL/DR Use as you want, attribution for source, No warranty}

{Used in a DatabaseByScript('SimpleMats') produces a database section of a Worksheet}
{that lists all of the Materials in a VW files in alphabetical order.}

TYPE 
	Mats=STRUCTURE
		HAND:Handle;
		Name:String;
		Simple:Boolean;
	End;
	
VAR	A1: 		DynArray[] of Mats;
	H1:			Handle;
	S1: 		String;
	B1:			Boolean;
	N1,N2,N3:	Integer;
	
	
Procedure FillArray(Hd1:Handle);
	BEGIN
		If IsMaterialSimple(Hd1) THEN
			Begin
				A1[N1].Hand:=Hd1;
				A1[N1].Name:=GetName(Hd1);
				A1[N1].Simple:=True;
				N1:=N1+1;
			End;
	End;
		
BEGIN
	Allocate A1[1..255];
	N1:=1;
	ForEachMaterial(False, FillArray);
	SortArray(A1,N1,2);					{Sorts Array By Name}
	For N2:= 1 to N1 Do WSScript_AddHandle(A1[N2].Hand);
End;

Run(SimpleMats);

 

To get the Complex Materials only, change the If IsMaterialSimple(Hd1) THEN to If Not(IsMaterialSimple(Hd1) THEN

 

If you only want the materials that are actually applied to objects in file (Not just in the Resource Manager) change the ForEachMaterial line to

 

ForEachMaterial(True, FillArray);

 

Ask if you have questions.

 

HTH

Edited October 21, 2023 by Pat Stanford
Removed forgotten debugging code

[dvdvarch]

Wow, thank you Pat, you open an entire new world to me. I am going to try it!

 

Do you think that I could find a way to show the place where those material are used? i.e room 202, 1st floor, building 2

 

thank you!

[Pat Stanford]

If you are using Spaces then probably.  There are worksheet functions for GetSpaceNameForObject and GetSpaceNumberForObject.

 

 

[dvdvarch]

It works! 

 

 

Questions:

 

 

How can I find in which object is a material used? Right-Click/select the object on drawing seems not working (probably because the data is referred to multiple objects).

 

 

1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

GetSpaceNameForObject

 

Yes, I use spaces

 

a the moment the formula returns "0", actually the walls are *around* spaces, not inside, does the command work anyway? 

(bytheway I have tried to make a big object space to comprehend the objects and it seems not to work)

 

Maybe this happens because rows are summarized. How to see one material instance per row?

(but now I have tryied to make a material used in one space only and it still doesn't get the location)

 

Thank you!!

 

Thank you!!

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by dvdvarch