Method inquiry

[Bill McGarvin]

I have a project I'm working on and am not sure of the most the efficient way to create a series of ribs that each have a slightly different 3d curve to them, (kind of like an ornate wrought iron fence).     Can anyone suggest a method?      (See image).

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Your image is a little small.  Are those strands twisted?   

 

[Bill McGarvin]

Yeah, but for the purposes of my drawing I don't really have to twist them.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Bill,

Then it would seem to be an "extrude along a path" using a NURBS curve.  The NURBS curve will give you a strand that can move in/out, etc.

 

Perhaps Kevin sees something that I do not.

 

regards....Paul

[jmcewen]

Are you asking how to efficiently make similar ribs of varying sizes once one is made? If they all start in the same plane and end in the same plane then once you create the first rib you can create a symbol of it and scale the symbol asymmetrically.  It will technically be a little bit inaccurate because the curves will cause the profile of the ribs to stretch or condense at different rates throughout the path of the curve.  If you are just looking for a visual representation rather than something that will be made by a machine this will probably be good enough in most cases. The symbol will make them easy to edit as a batch if you need to revise, and it will keep your file size down-- I am assuming this repeats a lot over the rest of your project.

 

Alternatively you create an extrude along path for 1 rib and duplicate array to place all the rest.  Then enter each extrude along path and scale the path object asymmetrically to adjust for the shifting frame profile.  This will take longer, but it will be more accurate, and it will not distort the roundness of the rib.

 

The Extrude along Path objects will increase your file size, so once you are sure you don't need to edit them anymore, convert them to generic solids.

 

To anyone with more experience than I have, is there a way to manipulate the chain extrude tool to deal with varying lengths of ribs?

[Bill McGarvin]

Thanks guys, I'll try the extrude along a path then duplicate array since my drawing is just a conceptual representation and not a fabrication drawing. 

....I have to wonder though, is there a way to create a wavy shape surface,(with different parts of the ribbon having different curve profiles) and have my extrusions follow that surface?    (The start points and end points being in different planes).

Edited August 7, 2023 by Bill McGarvin

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Bill,

There is nothing you cannot create in Vectorworks, but the level of difficulty rises with the complexity of the model.  Is the image below something like what you are thinking.

 

[Bill McGarvin]

Well no, but something more like this but with each bar following a slightly different curve.     (Start points all being the same and end points being the same).

 

[jmcewen]

26 minutes ago, Bill McGarvin said:

Thanks guys, I'll try the extrude along a path then duplicate array since my drawing is just a conceptual representation and not a fabrication drawing. 

....I have to wonder though, is there a way to create a wavy shape surface,(with different parts of the ribbon having different curve profiles) and have my extrusions follow that surface?    (The start points and end points being in different planes).

How about this: a birail sweep with the inner frame as the first rail, the outer frame as the second, and then draw your desired s curve for the profile.  

 

Then create contours  to find evenly spaced s curves, and extrude an appropriately sized circle along each of those s curves paths. Then  discard the birail sweep.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

If you were to take the corners out of this, it would be a fairly simple model, time consuming, but doable.  The Corners add a lever of difficulty.  Do you need the corners?

 

 

[jmcewen]

This might be an oversimplification of your request, but see attached.  I think I made a fairly straightforward process, but it will still take lots of repetition if there are a lot of ribs.

ribbed frame.vwx

[jmcewen]

2 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

This might be an oversimplification of your request, but see attached.  I think I made a fairly straightforward process, but it will still take lots of repetition if there are a lot of ribs.

ribbed frame.vwx 2.74 MB · 0 downloads

I forgot to mention, this little file was 160MB before I converted to generic solids.  Get rid of that edit history as soon as you feel safe to do so.

[jmcewen]

1 hour ago, Bill McGarvin said:

Well no, but something more like this but with each bar following a slightly different curve.     (Start points all being the same and end points being the same).

 

However, if this is what you are looking for, Chain Extrude is exactly what you need.

[Bill McGarvin]

OMG, Josh, Your VWX is super clear.   Thanks for taking the time to do this.   I think it's just what I need.     I imagine I could also use the LOFT SURFACE tool instead of the SWEEP tool to get a variation of curves into surface, right?    

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

12 hours ago, jmcewen said:

This might be an oversimplification of your request, but see attached

Glad you sorted this out.  I do not fully understand what Bill was asking for.  Tried to look at your file, but must be 2023.  Could you post again in 2022 or lower.

[jmcewen]

@VIRTUALENVIRONSOf course.  attached, but it blew up to 160mb again when I backsaved it.  screen shots of the process below as well.  It might help enough that you don't need the file.  For simplicity sake i assumed symmetry across the miters, but  the process should still be sound if it is not symmetrical across the miters.  it will just take effort and planning when aligning the nurb path objects for each side so that they meet neatly on the miter line.

 

As another alternative, if this is purely conceptual or visual and not for building printing or cutting, you could array some simple rectangular extrudes instead of the contour step, and then intersect solids with  the birail sweep this will be far faster in getting something you can show someone and get the concept approved, but still leave you with geometry you can  extract to do the steps above to complete the process for building printing or cutting. see below.  The array of rectangle extrusions is actually a singel extrude, so it is not labor intensive at all.  Quick and easy.

 

ribbed frame v2022.vwx

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

15 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

screen shots of the process below as well

Thank you, that is a very slick method.  I like slick.  Well done.   Although I am fairly comfortable at 3D modelling, I often don't understand the language of architecture or Landscape design, etc. and get off on tangents.  From the first post, I thought the the individual spire was the issue.

 

I would have some other thoughts now that I see what you have done, but it would have the same result.

 

Clearly you have a very high skill level of 3D design,

 

regards....Paul

 

[jmcewen]

3 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Thank you, that is a very slick method.  I like slick.  Well done.   Although I am fairly comfortable at 3D modelling, I often don't understand the language of architecture or Landscape design, etc. and get off on tangents.  From the first post, I thought the the individual spire was the issue.

 

I would have some other thoughts now that I see what you have done, but it would have the same result.

 

Clearly you have a very high skill level of 3D design,

 

regards....Paul

 

Thank you. Skill at design, yes, but in Vectorworks there is still much to learn.  I actually only discovered the create contours tool while working on this problem. I didn't realize the split tool worked on 3d objects until 2 weeks ago (the basic palette has always been 2d palette in my mind.) I have been drawing for about 18 years (about 13 years as a primary responsibility) but I am still finding things I don't know about that immediately become integral to my process.  All this time and I still think of myself as a novice.  There is so much I do not know about so much.  A good bit of what i see on the forum here is gibberish to me until I need it enough to learn it.

 

The one advantage I think I have over a lot of 3D modelers is the amount of time I have spent building in real life.  I started as a theatre scene painter, then started building so that projects would get to the paint department in time to be painted, then started doing breakdown drawings to get things to carpenters in time to be built so they would get to painters in time to be painted, and now I am designing so that things have time to be broken down in time to get to carpenters in time to build  to get to painters to paint.... 

 

[markdd]

6 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

I actually only discovered the create contours tool while working on this problem

You should investigate the Analysis Tool as well.....

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

9 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

have over a lot of 3D modelers is the amount of time I have spent building in real life. 

This does help.  Before MiniCad 1, I designed for the Federal Government, Canada, in 3D.  Not by computer, but by hand, 45 years ago.  I used ellipse guides, French curves, etc. to plot fairly complex 3D conceptual design.  

 

regards...Paul

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

10 minutes ago, markdd said:

You should investigate the Analysis Tool as well.....

That was an excellent tutorial, probably the most comprehensive available from what I have seen.

Edited August 8, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[jmcewen]

33 minutes ago, markdd said:

You should investigate the Analysis Tool as well.....

 

Thank you for showing me this. To do theses exact functions I have spent so much time using Vectorworks like it was a straightedge and compass doing geometric constructions as if I were one of Paul's colleagues 45yrs ago😁. The names of some of these tools say so little about what they do and the little icons don't reveal much either.  I don't know what I would call it instead though.

 

I need to go through the palette customization process again and investigate the uses of all the tools with what I know now.  Between tools i didn't know existed and tools i use everyday that do things I don't know about or don't understand I could be busy for a while.

[markdd]

2 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

That was an excellent tutorial, probably the most comprehensive available from what I have seen.

Thanks.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

4 hours ago, jmcewen said:

Between tools i didn't know existed and tools i use everyday that do things I don't know about or don't understand I could be busy for a while.

You seem to have a lot of natural talent even without knowing all the tools and you can't teach that.  Most of what you need to know is not in the books.  Markdd indicated he is working on tutorials and from what I have seen, they will be superb. 

 

Although I try to help, my areas of interest lie in mechanical engineering as opposed to Architecture.  Over the last twenty years or so I have worked out what is not in the books.   I designed a car in Vectorworks eight years ago, (VW 2015) see below.    The NURBS tools have not changed since then and probably won't for a while.  

 

I have a 23 minuted video that demonstrates this car being built in real time, no skipped time, start to finish except for the 3D locus points. 

If you are interested I will post the video.

 

[jmcewen]

1 minute ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

You seem to have a lot of natural talent even without knowing all the tools and you can't teach that.  Most of what you need to know is not in the books.  Markdd indicated he is working on tutorials and from what I have seen, they will be superb. 

 

Although I try to help, my areas of interest lie in mechanical engineering as opposed to Architecture.  Over the last twenty years or so I have worked out what is not in the books.   I designed a car in Vectorworks eight years ago, (VW 2015) see below.    The NURBS tools have not changed since then and probably won't for a while.  

 

I have a 23 minuted video that demonstrates this car being built in real time, no skipped time, start to finish except for the 3D locus points. 

If you are interested I will post the video.

 

23 minutes?  That is fast!  Sure if it is no trouble.  I have dabbled in Nurbs to fill gaps in other abilities, but more and more it seems i need to be something i need to embrace as a core competency.  I was making my way through the Vectorworks University Core Certification videos while work was slow to try to fill in the gaps in my foundational understanding, but then work exploded in Q3 and i had to abandon it.  any thing that will make some of these concepts more concrete will help.  the basic tutorial videos often fail to hold attention.  Learning from a more complete project may be more engaging.  Thank you.

 

@Bill McGarvin sorry for hijacking your thread!