Jershaun Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 IMHO, this new "stories" thing is just a convoluted grouping of Layers. "Stories" are only in the Organisation dialogue box and objects like walls, columns, pilasters, stairs, escalators & window walls are all relating to Layers and NOT stories (refer to OIP). This just re-affirms that "Stories" is a vw term for "Layer Grouping". I think the more people use it, the more they will realise it's not exactly what they expected it to be. The way it is, is just linking objects? top and bottom to Layers. One still can?t specify the 1st Floor wall to link its height to the 5th Floor roof/ceiling height and automatically represent that wall on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th Floor Plan (e.g. a stair well wall/s). What they will realise is there will be a lot of manual work (which is the typical vectorworks' way of doing things) and also they still require to set their own layer/floor heights manually especially when layers/floors have different heights. Due to circumstances, I've just started learning Revit. I hate to say this (because I was always anti-AutoDesk) but Revit has the BEST work-flow. All the user has to do is place Benchmark Levels in an elevation (on screen) and Revit links those Levels to Plans. If the user moves any of those Levels in elevation, Revit adjusts the datum automatically and walls adjust to those levels automatically. That is Super Easy. If the user draws a wall on Level 1 and tell Revit to link that wall to Level 6, Revit will automatically represent that wall on Plan from Level 1 through 6. That is Super Easy. In Revit the user can just concentrate on their design instead of worrying about Stories, Layers, Datum heights, etc. NemV has lost the plot and made things extremely unintuitive and non user-friendly, something AutoDesk was notorious for. I never thought of going to an AutoDesk product before that's why I stuck with vw for so long, however now that I'm learning Revit, I now realise how far behind vw really is and I also understand why the industry doesn't accept vw as a BIM solution most of the time. Instead of tweaking the current layer system (renaming, etc. which they have done), changing the name from Layers to Stories, making Layers automatically affect other Layers (within the same layer dialogue box), linking the Elevation Benchmark tool to Layers and creating a solution for automatic representation of objects across various Layers/Stories, NemV has implemented a new dialogue which was un-necessary and isn't really a solution or benefit. NemV will now stick by this no matter what, because it's done and all future versions they have planned, are based on this "solution". When vw2009 and vw2010 was released, the excuse why there wasn't much improvements was because they spent a lot of ?coding? time implementing the parasolid engine. So, when vw2011 was released, I thought: OK, this is a good step forward and this marked the end of the Parasolid integration and now the rate of development is going to be really fast and we would start to see some major benefits of this new Modelling Engine. However vw2012 doesn?t have that surge forward in terms of development that vw2011 promised. This, in a lot of ways, reminds me of the vw2009 release-not much new. When the Virtual Event was announced with keynote address from Sean Flaherty and Dr. Biplab Sarkar, I was expecting something revolutionary, something that would have brought vw to the level of SpaceClaim and Revit. I also expected with vw2012 the decisions to implement the Parasolid Engine in vw2009 to come shining through. The problem I have now, is whether to stick with vw or not because this 2012 release (although having very ?few? improvements) has spoken volumes. It says to me how NemV sets priorities. Instead of automating the BIM process in other areas and improving weaknesses of the software (below), they have spent a lot of time on the current layer system (which in my eyes didn't need much work and wasn't a major priority), and the user could have done manually anyway. I'm now thinking the money I spent on the last couple of upgrades could have been saved and put towards Revit/ArchiCAD. This isn?t NemV?s problem but my own so I've got some serious thinking to do. Below are some of the items that were (and still are) more important than Layer Renaming/Grouping (in no particular order): Real-time Zooming and Panning Interactive Sections Interactive Windows and Doors with Interactive Handles Interactive Elevations and Sections Interactive Plug-Ins 64-Bit Multi-Core Clash Detection Navigatable 3D Pdf's Real-time Hidden-Line Rendering Push Pull with 3D Fillets Intact Proper Working Windows and Doors Easier Cavity Wall Details with Window and Door Insertions Automatic Plan Representations True 3D Hatches, Tiles, Patterns X,Y,Z Handles 3D Perspective/Isometric Window with All Render modes Real-time Custom Rail, Post and Bar Profiles with Interactive Handles for Positioning, etc. Roof components ? Fascia, Gutter, Downpipes, etc. with Interactive Handles for Positioning, etc. Comprehensive Set of Text Tools Linetype Scale per Object Printable and Renderable Class Toggles Link to C4D Improvements. Dynamic Symbols Furthermore: Things like 3D Dimensions and Unified tools are examples of NemV not doing a feature properly the first time. They need 2 bites at the cherry. Instead of putting 2 features half done in 1 version, can?t they do 1 feature fully in 1 version and leave the other feature for the next version? Things like implementing 3D Dimensions are spanning over at least 3 versions (vw2011 was the introduction, vw2012 constructing geometry for 3D dimension eliminated, vw2013+... associative 3D dimensions). Could not all of these been done in 1 version? The Heliodon needs to have a 3D representation comparable to Revit?s. This is another example of taking 2 versions to get a tool correct. ?Faster Access to Frequently Used Settings?. 1 tool was missed being the Reshape tool. It only has 1 setting in the Fillet Preference Dialogue Box being Fillet Radius. Couldn?t this setting be included directly in the mode bar? The Parasolid Engine hasn't been incorporated into vectorworks efficiently or effectively. The video below shows how the Parasolid Engine actually works with special reference to 3D fillets. This is the 4th version of Vectorworks with this engine and NemV still hasn't got it correct. Windows and Doors aren?t the same around the world. They are constructed differently and their relationship to the wall differs from country to country. The configurations are almost limitless. You can?t expect a rigid technology like the plug-in (coding) tools to cover all these scenarios so why continue to use the current plug-in system of creating new tools and revising old tools in vw? Quote Link to comment
GWS Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 That pretty much sums up why I have moved to another program, not because I wanted to but because VW is falling too far behind. The promises of improvements are wearing thin, there is too little, too late. A real shame as I have been using VW for a long time and have always liked it. Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 IMHO, this new "stories" thing is just a convoluted grouping of Layers. "Stories" are only in the Organisation dialogue box and objects like walls, columns, pilasters, stairs, escalators & window walls are all relating to Layers and NOT stories (refer to OIP). This just re-affirms that "Stories" is a vw term for "Layer Grouping". I think the more people use it, the more they will realise it's not exactly what they expected it to be. The way it is, is just linking objects? top and bottom to Layers. One still can?t specify the 1st Floor wall to link its height to the 5th Floor roof/ceiling height and automatically represent that wall on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th Floor Plan (e.g. a stair well wall/s). What they will realise is there will be a lot of manual work (which is the typical vectorworks' way of doing things) and also they still require to set their own layer/floor heights manually especially when layers/floors have different heights. That's what I have been saying all this time along! And to know that the storeys are the only real thing in VW2012 because all the rest is the further construction of the new, not finished, things of VW2011! I always believed in VW, but with this version, I believe a bit less in VW now. NV has to do something about this! There are so many other things that they do need to fix! Quote Link to comment
Dieter @ DWorks Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Below are some of the items that were (and still are) more important than Layer Renaming/Grouping (in no particular order): Real-time Zooming and Panning Interactive Sections Interactive Windows and Doors with Interactive Handles Interactive Elevations and Sections Interactive Plug-Ins 64-Bit Multi-Core Clash Detection Navigatable 3D Pdf's Real-time Hidden-Line Rendering Push Pull with 3D Fillets Intact Proper Working Windows and Doors Easier Cavity Wall Details with Window and Door Insertions Automatic Plan Representations True 3D Hatches, Tiles, Patterns X,Y,Z Handles 3D Perspective/Isometric Window with All Render modes Real-time Custom Rail, Post and Bar Profiles with Interactive Handles for Positioning, etc. Roof components ? Fascia, Gutter, Downpipes, etc. with Interactive Handles for Positioning, etc. Comprehensive Set of Text Tools Linetype Scale per Object Printable and Renderable Class Toggles Link to C4D Improvements. Dynamic Symbols and others: Better control over wall components! Especially the attributes! Much better Vectorscript editor and more control over vw! Being able to run scripts at startup, shutdown, print, save, ..... commands! Only using classes for attribute setting! Text attributes settable through classes! Better texture control on parametric objects like walls! Much much better worksheets or give us total control through odbc! Better and deeper control over classes and layer overrides through viewports from design layer viewports! Give is total control over stuff instead of relying on the automatic workflow, like floor-wall bounding! Fix all bugs or rewrite the program from scratch! PIO's in walls should also cut out other walls they are not in when they intersect! Seperate opacity control over line and fill! (Let us write plug-ins in C#!) Let us choose the language of VW! Force the local distrubutors to let the users choose! ... I can go on and on. PLEASE NV, do something about it, and soon! Quote Link to comment
VincentCuclair Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) If VWs is going to have PIOs that can be visible on different layers, stories is unavoidable, on the other hand if there are only stories like in Revit and ArchiCAD then VWs loses a large part of it's flexibility (see my previous posts on this issue). I believe stories is the way to go in controlling PIOs in BIM but we need the flexibility of layers to continue to be able to do the 'other' things. i.e. various alternatives for the same floor, different representations for the same objects etc. As it is now layers define certain key elevations on stories, the thought is good however many key elevations perhaps don't need to be represented as layers all the time resulting in long lists of DLs, i.e. either we need to have the possibility to make the 'unused' layers invisible, or we need the possibility to create reference elevations and connect DLs to these as we see fit. Edited October 9, 2011 by Vincent C Quote Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.