Windows Fly Out Of Walls

[willofmaine]

Originally (maybe pre 12.5) I could put a window in a wall, save it as a symbol, and place it as many times as I wanted. I could then convert it back to a window (PIO), make changes, and re-save it with the original symbol name, thus globally updating all of its instances.

Now, when I go to modify and re-save a window as its original symbol, all of its instances end up outside of the wall. I have finally realized that their distance and orientation outside of the wall equals the distance and orientation between their insertion points (in the wall) and absolute 0,0.

In creating the symbols I have always used "Plan Projection Center" as the insertion point. I can still update existing window symbols in older files without a problem... unless I place another instance of a particular symbol, in which case the above described problems start.

Has anyone else experienced any of this, or have any thoughts?

Thanks! -Will

[P Retondo]

Will, I've verified the behavior you describe. Possibly this is a bug, but I think you can work around this very easily and save yourself some time as well.

It's not necessary to convert the symbol to a PIO in order to edit it. Just edit the 3d portion of the symbol. When you select the window in the symbol edit window, it will be a PIO and edit just like a PIO. You won't have to deal with this problem of a corrupted origin, plus you can skip a couple of the steps you have followed in the past.

[willofmaine]

Pete, thank you for your response, and especially for confirming that I'm not the only one experiencing this! It's been driving me crazy.

Your suggestion of just editing the 3d portion of the symbol makes all the sense in the world, and is consistent with how so many other things in VW function (just double-click, make changes, exit, and you're done! Easy.). But unfortunately, when I do it this way, my symbols don't seem to update properly. For example, the exterior trim loses its color, even though in the View tab of the PIO's Settings it's still set to use the Style-2 color. Months ago Tech Support actually told me to convert the symbol to a PIO and re-save it as a symbol in order to avoid such issues, which worked OK until now and this corrupted origin issue....

I've sent a series of files to Tech Support showing this problem, and will keep you posted regarding their response.

Again, thanks. -Will

[P Retondo]

Will, here's another work-around I tried out. The problem seems to be that on the second conversion to a symbol, the window is no longer in the correct location with respect to the symbol's coordinate system. Move the new symbol's window back to the correct position, and everything or almost everything is good (I had one window disappear completely, even after the repositioning). N.B., if your interior and exterior trim have different thicknesses, you can't use the center of the window object, you have to make sure you use the center of the window frame.

The behavior you are complaining about is definitely a bug, because if you save your modified PIO under a different symbol name, the displacement does not occur. NNA need to look at the code to see why the origin gets corrupted only when saving under an existing symbol name.

[willofmaine]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your suggestion. I had tried that before and tried it again now. While the trim colors are retained, and the windows remain in the wall, their locations along the wall change. I did notice while editing the symbol that its rotation was a negative 180 degrees (not 0 as when it was originally created). Unfortunately, resetting it to 0 flips it (so that exterior trim, sill & upper sash are inside).

I have been in touch with Tech Support...

As I understand it: a Window in a Wall, as a PIO, determines which side is its exterior based on the wall itself. Once it is saved as a symbol, however, it both loses it's ability to distinquish which way is exterior (because it no longer interacts with the wall as the original Window PIO did) and, also, evidently, it "forgets" which way was exterior. So, when editing the symbol and the window's settings there, the 'Int.' and 'Ext.' designations in the View tab are, I guess, potentially meaningless. Thus, when editing a window symbol it may be necessary to play around with all the View settings to get them correct. Indeed, I'd recently found that editing the symbol (without converting it to a PIO at all) and inverting the Int. and Ext. View settings seems to work (for example, under the View tab I set "Int. Trim" to Style-1 to get my exterior trim to use the Style-1 color...).

It was explained that the other option is to use the eyedropper tool, rather than symbols, to change all of your windows... (but that can get tedious with even just a few windows, so I'll probably keep wrestling with symbols).

And because of what seems like a bug, as discussed above, I'll of course avoid converting window symbols into PIO's for editing. If it is a bug, hopefully the e-mail & files I sent to Tech Support will generate a bug submit.

Phew!.... well, I guess that's where I'm at...

Thanks again, Will

[willofmaine]

I'm having greater success with window symbols now. The trick seems to be, when saving the symbol a second time (after editing), that it is simply necessary to invert Interior & Exterior in the View tab. (If I want the exterior trim controlled by a Style classe's color, I set the interior trim to use that Style class). While Tech Suppot insists that this is not a bug but rather the nature of the difference between a Window in a Wall and a window as a Symbol in a wall, the fact that the problem doesn't start until the symbol is edited, and the fact that (so far) the solution, with complete consistency, seems to be inverting interior & exterior, really makes me think it's either a bug or, maybe, a problem with my software or computer... (Note: this is all based on NOT converting the symbols to PIO's for editing, but rather editing the windows within the symbols, thus avoiding the whole "Flying out of Walls" problem).

Anyway, that's the latest...

Will

PS - I've also found that inserting window symbols as "Full Break WITHOUT Caps" prevents funny hatching patterns at the jambs in 3D views... (or maybe this is common knowledge...)

[P Retondo]

Will, hang in there with your bug submittal. I have reported a similar kind of problem with splayed windows, whereby "interior" and "exterior" appear to be getting mixed up. Since walls use the terms "left" and "right" and windows and doors use "interior" and "exterior," I think people might be getting mixed up about which term maps to which in some sections of the code.

Or maybe us users are getting mixed up, but your problem clearly shows something is going wrong. IMHO, it has all started with the unresolved terminology noted above, compounded in the case of splays by the fact that window and door "offsets" are in terms of positive and negative - yet another pair of terms that have to be consistently mapped.

[islandmon]

A possible clue :

whatz happening to the 2d Planview of the hybrid symbol?

[willofmaine]

Islandmon: the 2D plan view of the hybrid symbol (in particular the sill) is always consistent with the 3D physical representation of the window (which, in the case of a doulbe hung, can of course be confirmed by the relationship of the upper and lower sash as well as the direction of the sill).

Pete: I haven't worked with splayed windows, but I think you are correct in that this is simply a matter of "interior" and "exterior" getting mixed up, and the mix up doesn't seem to occur (at least in the case of trim, jamb & sash styles) until the window's settings, within its symbol, are altered. I tend to save all my windows as symbols, so now whenever I create a new window, I simply invert how I read "Exterior" and "Interior" in the Settings tab.

I actually need to return a call to Tech Support regarding my original issue with the windows flying out of the walls. Even though it's no longer an issue for me, in the back of my mind I'm wondering what other symbol type might behave in such a fashion. So, I'll pursue it further and keep you posted.

Thanks! -Will