Over/underhang fixtures, rotate truss in 3D

[Fergy]

Am I just missing something simple here? I can't rotate in 3D, because the symbols are hybrid. I need to overhang conventionals, and underhang my intelligent lights. Can't do either. Can only rotate around Z.

Can't seem to rotate truss simply either, except around the Z.

[islandmon]

In a pinch ...you can delete the 2D component of the Hybrid Symbol. So duplicate the original Hybrid >rename> and replace Hybrids with the modified 3D only Symbols.

[Fergy]

Yeah, I thought about that, but then my 2D plots will look like crap because it's a top view of a mesh.

There's got to be a simple way to do this that I'm not seeing. I can't believe that no one else works in both 2D and 3D, and needs to hang fixtures at other angles other than underhung on a pipe.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

The approach that I've taken is to have different symbols for the different hanging orientations. Working that way does 2 things for me:

1) The 3D part of the symbol "hangs" (or sits) correctly relative to the "Z" value. A fixture w. a "Z" value of 25' will hang correctly from a piece of truss trimmed @ 25'. A side-hung symbol will do just that @ whatever "Z" value I've given it.

2) For a lot of my symbols there are differences in the 2D representation. That way, someone reading the plot knows, for instance, the difference between an x.Spot hanging from a truss and one placed on top of a tower.

Your comment about 2D plots looking bad is one of my chief complaints against WYSIWYG. Folks seem to have missed the fact that there is a HUGE difference between a legible light plot and a top-view of a 3D model.

[RemcoT]

Dear Fergy,

I have asked for a solution for this many a times, but somehow Nemetschek can't or refuses to actively resolve this issue.

Commenting on the solution of having different symbols for the different orientations, it does help, but from a paperwork point of view, this means, that a simple summary of symbols in the lightplot will contain 6 times x.Spot hung, 12 times x.Spot 90 degree, and so on.

there is a workaround, namely: select the symbol, go to a sideview, select "duplicate array" and with this make a rotated copy of the symbol. Delete the original symbol.

with this, you will keep a 2D-view of your hybrid symbol, put how this looks, will be affected by the rotation of the 3D part.

Another solution (wich will incorporate some complex programming work) is to draw only with 2D symbols and "dynamicly" switch to it's 3D counterpart.

For instance: name the 2D symbol: "x.Spot 2D" and via a macro replace this with "x.Spot 3D" (wich has only 3D components)

I know, that in another CAD-program, this is the way of dealing with 2D/3D.

Anybody up to the challenge?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

FWIW...

Your concern about the paperwork is valid - if you're using Spotlight. I'm using AutoPlot and the inventory script w. that works just fine w. what I described. It checks a field in the symbol record for the fixture type - not the symbol name.

[Fergy]

Wow, so hanging a circle truss in anything other than a horizontal would really be bad.

This is one thing that was SO much simpler in Wyg, but I got fed up with the other bugs. But, a Cyberlight mounted on a vertical truss was easy enough to figure out.

Another super-annoying part of this is that the 3D symbols for the Martin fixtures are all set up to sit on the floor, not hang from a truss.

I'd consider this a MAJOR flaw in this application. I'll use the array trick to fix this, but it's pretty stupid. Stupid enough that I may stop using this app for anything other than simple 2D plans.

It's the same with truss...creating vertical truss towers should be far simpler. I guess the people designing this don't work anywhere except theaters.

[Fergy]

And another bug. When you create the rotated version using polar array, and then create a new symbol, it works fine the first time, but if you need to edit it, it deletes the 3D component of the symbol.

These aren't bugs I'd expect in a version 12 of an app.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Another super-annoying part of this is that the 3D symbols for the Martin fixtures are all set up to sit on the floor, not hang from a truss.

I'd consider this a MAJOR flaw in this application. I'll use the array trick to fix this, but it's pretty stupid. Stupid enough that I may stop using this app for anything other than simple 2D plans.

Though I've admittedly been a pretty vocal critic of Spotlight, to call a few symbol rotation issues a "MAJOR flaw" is REALLY pushing it. Of all of the reasons not to use an app, that is a pretty lousy one. Is it that hard to take a minute to fix the symbols?

Also, the folks @ NNA will respond to your concerns, but I'm sure would appreciate a little respect in the process. There are better ways to voice cocnerns...

[Fergy]

Talked with tech support. They say the only way to deal with this is to use multiple layers, and rotate the working plane for each layer. You'd then have to create a layer for each possible rotation plane you'd want to hang a lighting fixture. That's assinine.

We also tried editing the symbol several layers down. Don't do this with anything such as the ETC fixtures which all reference a base symbol, because, though you can rotate that 3D object, it changes everything in your plot globally, not just that specific type of fixture. In my example, I duplicated the ETC Source4 NSP, then tried to edit that 3D symbol. I was able to get it to rotate, but it changed any other ETC PAR on my plot, regardless of lens.

[Fergy]

I'd still consider it a major flaw. Why not put a tab in object info for rotation on each axis, instead of limiting to the Z only.

I've tried editing duplicates of the Spotlight symbols, but the 3D components of the hybrid symbols delete themselves if you rotate them via the editing process the first time you change views.

The issue is that I just want an application that works, solidly, and doesn't require a multitude of workarounds. Tha's why I changed from Wyg. It's extremely frustrating, especially for an app priced in this range.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

Because I use symbols (for my fixtures and truss) having different symbols for different fixture orientations works quite well. Where I depart from the AutoPlot and Spotlight norm is that I then have a record field for "optics." For example, I have a group of Source 4 PAR symbols @ different orientations and change the lens designation w. a simple data change. When I make a change to the bottom-hung definition, all of the bottom-hung Source 4 PARs ONLY change. You could do the same w. Spotlight symbols - though significantly more cumbersome if you use my approach.

Your idea of adding a parameter to the Spotlight OIP makes a lot of sense and, though it would mean the PIO having to "call" both a 2D and a 3D symbol seperately, it shouldn't be impossible to implement. Things that would have to be considered are questions like how the insertion points for the different symbols would be tracked. Not a bad idea, though...

Where this idea may cause dificulty is when rigs are raked. For a given truss and its fixtures, rotating it off of horizontal involves a lot more than simply rotating the iindividual symbols in-place. All of the elements actually move relative to X and Y on the ground, as well.

As I said in a previous message, there is, a lot of times, a big difference between a legible light plot / shop drawing and a 3D drawing showing how things hang in space. Several of my rigs have had NO elements that hung level. I would have never have wanted to send my vendors drawings that didn't have things "flattened out."

It is for this reason that I've really grown to appreciate VW's hybrid/2D/3D options. For some drawings I want hybrid. For others, I need 2D-only and for others 3D only.

[Joe Golden ENT]

There is hanging angle option in the truss PIO that will make it a tower. I prefer to use symbols that are 3d only that I made from the dxf's from a truss manufacturer.