Class of objects within walls

[Mark McCay-Moran]

I'm a long time mcad/vw users trying to get more sophisticated in the way I use pios. I'm having trouble with the way the pio classes are viewed when the object is within the wall.

EX: a window is inserted in the wall and has a Window-Main class. The wall has a Wall class. If I select view active class only, select Window-Main, I see nothing. If I select view active class only, select Wall, I see the walls with openings (no windows). How do I see the windows only? This seems to apply to any object that interacts with a wall (door, wind, symbol etc). It also seems to contradict the whole reason for organizing objects into classes (to view and modify based on how they're organized).

I recently jumped from vw 8.5 to 10.5 and I was hoping this behavior was something addressed in the last couple of releases, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something?

Thanks,

mmm

Nevada City Design Studio

[Guest]

Mark,

The reason the windows disappear, is because the sub objects in the window have different classes. So once you turn one of those off, the whole thing goes. Some of the sub objects may have classes, such as, style-1 or glazing style-1 based on if you chose those settings in the object info palette for that window. I also think some of the parts are on the none class as well.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Thanks for the response, Mark. I still feel like I'm either missing something, or the vw logic in organizing by classes is flawed. Please set me straight.

A more basic example:

Create a new drawing file. Place a wall (default none class). Place a window in the drawing (default none class with all sub objects set to none class). Create a Wall class and place wall in it. While separate objects both wall and window can be viewed in Active Class only by selecting the appropriate class. OK. Place the window in the wall. Now view the wall class (active class only)--see the wall with a break where the window is (no window). View the none class--nothing! no window, no objects at all.

If the next response is, "the window is now a sub-object of the wall with a different class," that follows vw logic, but is unacceptable to me. It goes against all reasons for organizing a drawing by classes--to be able to view, select and modify items based on a hierarchy system. How is it possible to select all windows without using a custom selection script?

If one of the main advantages of using classes is to have the class define line wt, color, fill etc, one would never want every sub-object in the same class anyway. This seems like a catch 22. To my thinking we've just nullified the advantages of having items interact with wall elements.

BTW, I've been using the example of a pio object within a wall. But really the issue extends to many areas in vw. Symbols, pios, groups all display this unintuitive way of organizing by class. When I've discussed this with knowlegable users in the past, its been implied that this is just the way it is. Yikes! I know that Robert Anderson (who seems to be one of the few knowledgable about the way VW is ACTUALLY used--not intended as a slam on NNA) in previous discusions has talked about the group being a "container" with its own class. I understand this. However, this still doesn't give one the ability to see and modify objects within the group (or symbol or pio or wall) in a convient fashion. Thanks for your attention.

Mark McCay-Moran

Nevada City Design Studio

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Hi Folks,

I'm still struggling with this, sooo.... one more try.

To make this as simple as possible: How do I select all windows in a drawing file at the same time? This really shouldn't be that much to ask, but I can't seem to do it.

I figured that since I was fighting a losing battle with the class visibility, my work-around would be using the Custom Selection command. To my dismay, the Custom Selection (and Custom Selection 2) won't allow me to select items interacting with a wall. The check boxes added to the dialog box "including components of symbols (or pios)" seems to indicate that NNA acknowledges that there should be a way to select individual objects within these "containers." Wouldn't it logically follow that there be check boxes for "including components of walls" and "including components of groups"??? (Actually in Custom Selection 2 only "within Symbol" appears and that criterion doesn't seem to work properly.)

I don't want this to turn into a "Mark's-rant-about-things-in-VW-that-don't-work-to-his-satisfaction." Rather I'm looking for real world solutions. If everybody else is perfectly satified with the way the selection, modification, and viewing of items within walls, pios, symbols, and groups behaves in VW, please tell me! And if this is the way its meant to work, can we at least have the flexibility within the Custom Selection commands to work around?

Thanks again,

Mark McCay-Moran

Nevada City Design Studio

[Kristen]

As far as I know, you're right, you can't select all the windows in a drawing. Because of this, I avoid using straight plug-in objects as much as possible. I use the PIOs within regular symbols, so at least I can change multiple instances of the same window. I also use class attributes as much as possible, so that I can change colors and lineweights without selecting each window. There are still times when I wish I could use the custom selection on objects in walls, but there are ways to work around this limitation, and I'd say that class attributes is the most valuable tool. What exactly are you trying to do with the PIOs?

[Mark McCay-Moran]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kristen:

As far as I know, you're right, you can't select all the windows in a drawing.

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Whew! OK I'm not going crazy. What exactly am I trying to do? Everything and anything. I picked a window within a wall as an example just because it seems so obvious that one would want at times to modify/select/view such a basic element so core to the way a great many of us use VW.

Really this post has evolved because I'm training somebody in my office who, as his level of sophistication rises, has started asking questions that I'm having trouble answering. Very basis questions, like, what happened to those objects that I have just drawn? (when trying to view by class) I find that I can answer his question, even show him why its happening. But he's not satisfied. As I think about it, I'm not satisfied either.

We all have habits and ways of working that have "evolved" with the long term use of any program, and I have found that for many years now I have not taken advantage of the power of Classes within VW. For instance I'm very used to Grouping objects and Grouping "groups" of objects to facilitate duplicating, moving, modifying, etc. This worked fine when my primary means of organizing a drawing was by Layers and most everything was drawn in the None class. Now I find grouping objects this was is disasterous to my classes! No? Now I'm trying to create office standards for my own business that take advantage of VW's features including class organization and more 3D work. I'm willing to change the way I work in VW to achieve this, but when I'm having trouble with such basic issues its quite discouraging.

Thanks for your response, Kristen. I sure hope that there are some folks from NNA and advanced users reading this thread 'cause I'd really like to resolve these issues and move forward.

Cheeers,

mmm

Nevada City Design Studio

[Travis]

Mark,

I too have recently added an assistant drafter and another designer on staff. I "hear" your strugglings, as it were. You might read Chris' response to my earlier post (different subject, same general objectives) @ VWA BB.

The key for me has been determining exactly what I want as output, and then working backwards. I understand that part of what you're asking has to do with productivity, but productivity has to ultimately produce finished work. I find that we're all very creative in finding ways to produce the desired results once it's clear what's desired. It's required a measure of discipline, including some written protocols, that I didn't need when working on my own; but the results have been gratifying.

Sorry for not adding much meat to the discussion. Best success.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Thanks for your reply, Travis. Yes, I did follow your thread in the VWA discussion, and while I'll probably never use VWA for material take-offs, I understand what you are saying about using the "reverse engineering" concept. Thanks for your encouragement. Now, back to the training process!

OT: Most of my work is stick framed (with some ICF and SIPs) but I have done a few timber framed homes with a local builder that specializes in that method. Quite interesting, with great final results--and a far cry from what has become in California the "standard": sticks, trusses, california framed roof elements, and "fake" beams added to the interior after the fact. Best of luck to your endeavors.

mmm