alanmac

George Which Kensington did you get, the Expert , Expert Pro ? They seem a little pricey when compared to Logitech and Microsoft offerings, but not completely put off, just don't want to find I can't get on with it after spending loads of money, which has been stated in one review I read, some people just can't get on with them. Suppose if that's the case there's always ebay! Alan

Or you could try jigsaw24.com they have cd 1 and 2 listed at ?56 each plus the usual.

David I agree and have no problem with Vectorworks compared to Autocad rather than Autocad Lt. This makes the cost and value of Vectorworks even greater than its comparison to Autocad Lt that Michael made. So we have a product the equal and in some respects, according to ex-Autocad users, better than Autocad, in the price range Autodesk want to charge for Autocad Lt. Also I think you'll find Autodesk market Autocad Lt as a "professional " product. http://www.autodesk.co.uk/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=452932&id=4014226 Although was Autodesk Sketch or was it called Autosketch the product brought out for what you describe David? all the best Alan [ 03-01-2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

Hi Kevin You know of course that holding the shift key down once you start moving an object will constrain its directional movement or when starting to drawing a line etc. will constrain it to vertical, horizontal, and angles such as 30 or 45 degrees, (which are also configurable), if you have it set to unconstrained by default in the mode bar. Apologises if you already know this. Alan [ 03-01-2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

Shaun I know that using Macs there was an issue regarding speed compared to Windows. This if I remember correctly was related and can only be resolved by the OS rather than Vectorworks. As point releases of OSX have come along I understand this has got better, and hopefully will one day be the same as Windows but you mentioned Autocad Shaun, so are you using Apple (which version) or Windows? I'm currently on Windows in my own studio set up but use both operating systems when working under contract, and I think this is another plus point for Vectorworks, putting aside the speed issue which will get better (come on Apple), the way it works virtually the same on both platforms and produces little or no problems in cross platform compatibility is a credit to them. I've found any problems such as font changes more an issue of the OS than the program, having said that they are easily changed. Not everything is rosy, I am annoyed that my dongle does not work correctly with 10.5, upon coming out of sleep mode it does not recognise the serial number and shuts down, but hey, I just don't use sleep mode when in VW or I upgrade to VW11, which I'm told it does not happen in. All the best Alan

I don't know how many of my fellow users on Windows or Mac have changed to a cordless mouse, but those who have not may I offer this word of caution. I purchased a Microsoft Cordless mouse with tiltwheel. Whilst I have no compliants about its functions, after a particular long stint of use I find my wrist aching and becoming tired. I put this down to the fact that because of the on board two AA batteries used to power the mouse it weighs much more than its corded equivalent and requires more physical effort to move it around.. Looking around the shops showed that obviously all use some form of battery, either disposable or rechargable, but all weigh more than a corded one. Whilst the weight may not notice as much straight away if you are pushing this around all day I believe it has an effect. I can't stand the sort of scratching noise it makes over a desktop so I use a cloth faced mousepad and realised despite my "freedom" from wires I didn't move it very far in scale to the desk surface and did use it on the pad area as much as possible. On setting up another computer on my home network I pulled out my old corded mouse - what a difference, light as a feather. So I may just go back to the "old technology" of a corded optical mouse and give my wrist less of a hard time! Or buy a Wacom tablet with cordless-no batteries mouse if I get rich!. Certainly something to consider before you make the change. All the best Alan

Obviously speaking to somebody who gets a bit prickly when somebody disagrees with them !! Michael You made a statement in an open forum and as such we are entitled to reply and respond, disagree and qualify that response if we so choose, both in an objective and polite manner. VW diehards who think its the best thing in the world we are not, but I for my part, think it is a good product and not deserving of your "VW is certainly not a quality 3D package yet" comment as I said before. Current users of the program who go back more years than myself, some to the very early versions of Minicad, will I'm sure tell you of a program that has steadily increased its capabilities and features year on year. This without huge increases in the cost of the program. There is room for improvement and it has been said many times already by many a "diehard VW user" as well as newcomers to the program. I would challenge you to prove to me how this is not as "accurate or as good as the similar priced AutoCAD light" Whilst we talk of the similiar priced Autocad Lt does this have even half the capabilities of VW for the similiar asking price, a list of features side by side I'm sure would reveal a much greater feature set in Vectorworks including 3D for the same money. I'm glad you say you like it and I'm sure it will grow on you as time goes by. Do you have Vectorworks Architect or the basic version. If its the basic version, stairs may not show up and be part of the Architect package. "By now VW should be getting the basics right." What basics? What other software company, let alone CAD software company, offers you a money back guarantee if you are not satisfied with their product within a number of days of purchasing it? Sixty days I think it is. Some programs may offer features that VW does not, some may do some things differently or in your opinion better, but taking all the features and capabilities it has in the one package, show me a product its equal within this price range. I don't have some blind loyalty to Vectorworks but I do enjoy (most of the time)using it, virtually everyday of my working week, and I accept it has some faults and could do with improvements. I've seen it improve over the years, both with features I use, and with some I don't. I don't agree with your statement about quality or your judgement of us for disagreeing. I'm optomistic about Vectorwork and its future. I'm also optomistic about my own future because I made the choice of Vectorworks, I make no apology for that. For the most part we are here to help and encourage our fellow users, (this is not an official NNA company forum just hosted by them) Hopefully not confrontational (my opening line in response to yours and the need not be so aggressive) , but by the same token able to disagree without causing offence. Hope you stay with us. All the best. Alan Edit due to spelling. [ 02-28-2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

Vectorworks is a quality 3D package. At the moment it just does not happen to do what you want it to. I've never found it not to be able to create anything in 3D I need, and more importantly, what somebody can build from those 3D designs. It has always been a good balanced mix of 2D and 3D capabilities with the potential to produce 2D working drawings from your 3D models - for a very competitive price. Sure it may not give you 2D elevations from the 3D model without having to do some work but even in the worst case and you had to redraw it over the elevation I bet it would be quicker than from scratch. I think its unfair to judge Vectorworks so harshly, although I also think they need to ensure they continue progress within the marketplace. I'm sure it will in the not to distant future do what so many seem to be asking of it. But let's face it this is a requirement thats grown from the use of such programs as Vectorworks and the potential it offers in the first place, never laid down as a requirement when computers started to be used for CAD work. Nothing wrong in pushing for it in the future but don't criticise it because you may have changed the goalposts. If you can find a program that does do what you require, (I think Arcicad may be one) take a look at the price tag - nuff said! [ 02-26-2005, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

It's a while since I looked at the Liverpool Uni site in my trawls of the internet, and they've improved and added alot. So one down, only another few hundred to go !! I'd say Bournemouth Uni, Salisbury and Portsmouth (my neck of the woods) are a ideal educational establishments to target. Sadly as you say the same cannot be said for CU site although they have created a "design section" which reflects the mailer they send out but it really mirrors details of software from manufacturers literature and promotes these paying seminars. Could be so much more. Gone a little astray from the original post as it does, but I guess my take on it is, yes things could be made easier but also more features equal more complexity and its a trade off between the two. Whilst training videos, manuals etc can also be improved and added to it needs a willingness by the user to make the effort to learn. Its those horses again. [ 02-25-2005, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

I may have the wrong end of the stick here but to my mind pdf is the most sensible way to go. I don't need to "share" my drawings with anybody but if I did I'd be concerned that a file which to all intents and purposes is my work could be altered by somebody. This is not to do with copyright issues but to do with responsibility if something goes wrong at a later date. The need to keep track and a record of drawing issues and any consequence I would have thought very important. The fact that pdf's do not support layers can surely be overcome by creating pages for each layer in the pdf and further you can use the layer visibility options to provide other alternatives to each page view. After all from what Oldguy describes the utility mentioned does not work correctly anyway.. Quote "Now, as far as reading DWF files, there is (or was?) a untility that would import DWF into an AutoCAD session for manipulation/revision. Mind you, is was pretty dumb downed - Text, for instance, was not text, by merely line strokes that "looked like" text." Pdf also has the added advantages of smaller file sizes for emailing and the "Reader" of this format is freely and easily available to everyone without hunting it down in obscure or little heard of sites. You'll find a pdf creator included in OSX for the Mac, free or cheap on both Mac and PC readily available on the internet without going to the expenditure of Acrobat Distiller. I understand that to most dwf is only a file viewing file format so why not get Autodesk out the loop and use something else. Even speak nicely to your source and ask for files in either a format you can open and use in Vectorworks or in a format you can use irrespective even of Vectorworks such as pdf. No harm in asking and the more pdf is mentioned the more it will be in peoples mindset and used. Could make life that little bit easier. Alan P.s. Oldguy - reference your signature, an old expression you'll have heard before "why put off till tomorrow what you can do today" Vectorworks. All the best. ;~) [ 02-24-2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

Mike That's a crying shame, but at least you tried. I do think that Nemetschek could do more, certainly in the UK, working with its national distributor, Computers Unlimited, to push and promote Vectorworks in colleges and Uni's more. They are (CU)holding seminars to promote and show how VW works and such - but you actually have to pay to go to these!! Dealing more with the higher professional user looking to change it would seem. In my opinion their efforts would be better spent on the new users of tomorrow, winning them over, using VW before anything else, not only trying to convert the old user of something else to Vectorworks. Whilst I'm sure a few Vectorworks users have switched to say Archicad for whatever reason I bet not many have (by choice) switched from Vectorworks to Autocad. It seems any CAD program other than Autocad just does not appear on any of the courses at most of the UK colleges or Uni's. That's a problem for Nemetschek to worry about, for us its "pushing against an open door" as one of my clients likes to say, when he's not drinking water ;~) Port anyone? Alan

Hi Oldguy Don't disagree with your comment, the reality is as you show it, and if we all used Autocad there would not even be this question or discussion. But as the question was raised in a Vectorworks forum one must assume this question is asked by somebody who has chosen to use Vectorworks instead of Autocad but needs, perhaps not by choice but by necessity, to work with files created on alternative programs. That is another reality, the freedom of choice, not as Autodesk would have it - freedom of choice, so long as you choose one of ours. Like Ford or Chevy you do indeed have a choice, but they don't dictate what brand of petrol you have to use to run them on. You want to learn Vectorworks when you retire!! I'll tell you what, if I get the big win on the UK lottery this weekend I'll send you my copy of Vectorworks. You won't even have to buy a Mac as it's Windows PC and I can kiss goodbye to pounding these keys and clicking this mouse for a living forever. Now that is freedom. All the best. Alan

Hi Jan thanks for the info, in contridication of what others said reference "Also, the DWF is not just a 2D print; it keeps the vector geometry, and the viewer can orbit through 3D models." Like the touch about you can orbit a 3D model but if you want to measure the geometry it will cost you $200!! How does the Vectorworks Viewer compare on this level of functionality? Perhaps the reason no dwg viewer for Mac has been forthcoming from Autodesk is as you say "they've been working on a Mac version for over two years and just aren't smart enough to pull it off." or it could be that they realise if you are viewing this via a Mac (Virtual PC excluded) you are not using or intend using any of their products, as they are Windows only. Why spend time and money developing things to make the oppositions life any easier. To me it sounds like a hollow gesture to the file sharing ideaolgy. You're free to share files as long as your buying or using our software to share it on. But as I've said already its not a problem for me but must make life difficult or over complicated for the many wishing to use alternative programs to work with others. All the best Alan

Mike In my opinion the fact nobody responded to your Uni classes is criminal and a golden opportunity missed. When I started to research the move from drawing board to computer some years ago I contacted my local colleges etc in the area. Without exception they all trained CAD using Autocad and I think that situation exists even today. Supplemented with learning something like Studio Max for visuals etc. I'd be at home screaming " but I don't want to use Auto ***** cad !! Apart from the very high price I didn't like the attitude of Autodesk which even permeated down through to local dealer level, treated as if they were doing you a favour in letting you buy it. If you baulked at or questioned the price they'd look down their nose at you and implied if you couldn't afford it then you can't do the job !!. Then come out with fancy leasing packages for six thousand pounds including a specially built workstation of their manufacturer. How the money rolled in. Then when I found out about Minicad, with its 3D capabilities at less than the price of 2D Autocad Lt the usual reply was "Never heard of it" or "if you want a professional CAD program there is only one" I would have loved to have had the advantage of college or university classes in Vectorworks, but I have to admit it would be because this works out much cheaper than one to one onsite training. Even now, to my knowledge, in the UK the number of VW trainers can be counted on the fingers of one hand - the whole UK. Yet I know many many companies using the software, at least three of my design clients due to my personal use and recommendation. If the young students are being trained on something else then you have twice the task when it comes to getting them to change. If the horse won't drink take another closer look, you may have got hold of an ass instead !! All the best Alan

Also, is it that as whilst Vectorworks is an essential part of the process it does not suit the needs of the visual, image based people being mentioned who know that at some stage they need the requirements that Vectorworks has, but would be better suited or get more value and use from say Sketch Up. How about a hybrid of the two with good seamless file exchange capabilities? With regard to the problems of training and "These people even have problems with the training CD's - their brains just switch off." At the end of the day an old expression comes to mind "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" Hope you know a good way to chill out or have a cupboard full of stress balls Mike! all the best Alan

Just make sure your client when printing the pdf does not use any of the scaling options in Acobat Reader, shrink to fit page etc. and all should be fine. I got compliants from one of my clients that the scale was wrong, perfect not only in Vectorworks but in the pdf my end. Once I questioned him a bit more there was an embarassed silence followed by a "oh I didn't realise I was doing anything other than printing it out, didn't look at my printer settings, how do you do that?" You can only do so much !! Alan

One of the things touched on in this thread and in other posts is the increasing complexity of Vectorworks, this is of course linked to its increasing capabilities and is a observation not a criticism. Maybe its time for a "lite" (hate the expression) version of Vectorworks something like it had with its Blueprint program in the Minicad days, although I never owned or used it. This could be used for good basic 2D work which is something some users seem to require, without the need for 3d modelling but have a upgrade or progression path to the "full" version of Vectorworks both in terms of files and in customer upgrade pricing options. Whilst it could be argued you don't have to use Vectorworks in 3D mode you still pay, quite rightly, for that capability in the asking price. Whilst this may be competing within perhaps an already crowded area it would get people in that market area on the Vectorworks ladder so to speak, and have the potential of increased sales later. Personally I got Vectorworks because of its 3D capabilities, giving me what I needed without paying the asking price of Archicad, Autocad etc. I'm not an Architect and only use the "vanilla" version of Vectorworks rather than the industry standard versions. I understand that, as with all things in life, changes in working practises are taking place. I hear the expression BIM used a fair amount but how this relates to the smaller architectural practises I don't know. I'm sure many of you are using the program for the more mundane but still profitable and worthwhile work of architecture, which will never justify or need the producing of complex models or complex construction documents within the fees charged or expected by your clients. A simplier version for the simple tasks which may even find a place in multi seat practises. Just a thought Alan [ 02-23-2005, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]

bohlr Take a look at pdf995 it may suit your needs as its a Windows program and free with the option to purchase to stop banner ads. You can also download additional software to edit created pdf's such as add or remove pages, combine pdf's etc. Worth a look at as its free, before making the possible heavy investment in something like Distiller, which may be required, dependant on your specific requirements. Alan

Kolt I've got the dongle plugged in the back of my computer in a usb port and you never see it unless you look around the back of the machine. Can't you do this? It does not have to be plugged in at a visible location and its a key that the program looks for upon starting Vectorworks. The only time it may cause a problem and this goes for some other usb devices, is if you plug it into a hub but I've not used one like that so never experienced a problem of that type. Unplugging it ever time and putting it somewhere safe may be a good option but I'm more worried about constant wear and maybe the connections getting damaged over time so leave it in place. Alan Alan

Shaun I agree. I'm trying to make the change over from Artlantis to Cinema, which I have versiopn 8.2 of, but I'm struggling with the new interface,the different way it works and client deadlines. I can get by with Artlantis but getting by is not good enough these days. You'd think your suggestion would be feasible as Nemetschek parent company own both Vectorworks and Maxon (makers of Cinema) The other advantage of the Cinema route is the great number of additional factors it brings to your work. Better organic modelling if needed, modelling beyond Vectorworks excellent capabilities, great plugins etc such as Xfrog for planting, loads of shaders and other source material freely or very cheaply available, and look at Archivision (I think thats the name) RPC people etc. Add to this a great forum at cgtalk.com with really friendly and helpful people and i think its very appealing. The "core" program which i have is not that much more than buying renderworks or Artlantis. I managed to get the Bodypaint module as well. Sketch and Toon module would also for me be of great interest. Really need to knuckle down to using it instead of Artlantis. Alan

George Good grief man, what are you talking about... "I realise your tactic to ignore upright arguements and replace them with simple assumptions" "Good cop - bad cop" "bubble gum discussion" "VectorWorks has earned a more objective kind of articulation" Where are you coming from ? I understand perfectly the "theory" of your arguement, and that of colour and industry practise. Being involved in the graphic design industry all my working life, over 34 years, I have managed to obtain a fair bit of knowledge, which I have always been happy to pass on to help others if I can, but never in a condesending manner... What I was trying to assertain was the exact nature of the circumstances of your situation to offer further help and advice based on my experience in the industry and dealing with client requests and particular specifications. Only to pleased to help others along the way if I can. I can see that this attempt to help rather than appreciated is merely sniped at and treated with a condesending manner which goes a long way to explaining the situation you are in. Dress it up in as much convoluted language, back handed insults and poor grammar as you see fit. Rest assured I'll not bother to offer any further help to you on this matter. I am and have always been a great advocate of Vectorworks but I also realise that it is far from perfect. As with all things, improvement can be obtained I have no illusions on that score. Good day.

In my opinion although low specification compared to the top Macs you should only have a issue of speed with regard to the rendering, a higher spec should just do it faster. I suspect that there is another reason for this but leave that to the technical people at NNA to answer/solve. Hope they come to your assistance soon. Alan

George And how does your workround work on files containing multiple colours and with colour images brought into Vectorworks and re exported. Great if it keeps you the work. Are the people telling you what the values should be when you create the VW work. I'm still mystified as to what purpose you want a cad program to go to this level of colour fidelity for. Alan

This is far to broad a question to expect a "use so and so graphics card. You need to look at all the aspects, what machine you are getting etc, platform you run on, other software it will be used with. Just getting the fastest of everything isn't really a good way to buy. There is little point in buying the fastest card available if the rest of your machine creates a bottleneck and can't keep up. Its a question, as with so many things in life, of a balance. Maybe go to a specialist dealer who will build a machine suitable for your requirements once you outline these in detail to them.

Travis hi, no you didn't muddy the waters, not from my position anyway but added very well, and better than me, the differences and the processes involved. I understand the problem and the wish in its principle. As you said and I commented on before you will indeed have a hard time getting the developers of a CAD program making the effort to turn it into a pre-press solution at the level George is asking about. Your suggestions on a solution with the limitations you state is a very good one in my opinion and would not only go a long way to solving Georges situation but may help with others wanting to maintaining a consistence of look and feel (corporate image) when presenting their documents and proposals. I understand that the problem is not of printers getting the correct CYMK values for printing but the method by which we view these on screen and indeed people like Hell and Scitex make a very good living out of this. Although coming from a graphic design background my work directly has been over the last decade or so more three dimensional design but I can see I'm going to have to get back into it graphics again. The more we know it seems the more we have to learn. All the best. Alan [ 02-15-2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: alanmac ]