Font Mapping

[Charlie Morrison]

This is a bit of an odd question...

I have several drawings which I created using an Adobe Multiple Master font called GraphiteMM. When using it, there were separate individual variations of the font for Bold, Light, Wide, etc. So, if you wanted a bold font, for instance, there was a separate font on the font list for that bold font. To be more specific, you didn't use the style menu to make the font bold, you just picked the bold font from the list.

For various reasons, I've switched to using an OpenType version of the same font. I have no problem using the new font, but when opening old drawings, I'm unable to map the old bold fonts to the new bold fonts. Basically, this font works differently than the old one...when you want a bold version of the new font, you choose the base font name and use the style menu to choose bold. Unfortunately, on the font mapping menu, you can't specify bold or italic, etc.

So, I have all of this text which shows up plain rather than bold.

Does anyone know if there's some sort of workaround for this?

Thanks,

Charlie Morrison

[Charlie Morrison]

I'm actually using Windows XP Professional. The reason I switched fonts was the Multiple Master font required Adobe Type Manager, which I wanted to get rid of. So, I switched to the Open Type font.

To be more specific about what's happening...

The older drawings used a font that was called GraphMM_512 BD 523 NO, which was essentially Graphite Bold.

The new equivalent font is called GraphiteStd-Bold.

The problem is GraphiteStd-Bold doesn't show up as its own entry in the font list. Instead, you access it by simply choosing GraphiteStd from the Font Menu, and choosing Bold from the Style menu.

Using the old version of the font, you didn't select Bold from the style menu. Doing that was unnecessary as that particular font was already bold.

So, when I go to map the old font names using Font Mapping, there isn't a separate selection for GraphiteStd-Bold, there's only GraphiteStd. I can map to GraphiteStd, but the newly mapped font shows up as just plain, not bold. Does that make sense?

Ideally, what I need to be able to do is map GraphMM_512 BD 523 NO to GraphiteStd-Bold. But without GraphiteStd-Bold showing up in the font list as its own listing, I can't do it. I'm wondering if maybe there's a workaround or a text file I can edit that shows the font mapping or something like that.

Thanks,

Charlie Morrison

[Guest]

Are you using OS 9 or 10?

[Guest]

You aren't going to be able to map the font to a font not showing up in the font list.

There are a number of reasons that can cause a font to not show up in the fonts list.

1. If you have more than 255 fonts installed, only the first 255 installed fonts will show up.

The only way around this is to get your fonts down to 254 in the fonts folder, add your 'new' font and then put the extra fonts you don't use back in the fonts folder if you want. You can just leave them in another folder outside of the fonts folder if you don't use them.

2. The font may be corrupted. If you have less than 255 fonts in your fonts folder, the font you would like to use may be corrupted. Check the file size of the font. If it's less than about 5k it may be corrupted. That may require a download of the font again from adobe.

[Charlie Morrison]

I don't think the font is corrupted or isn't showing up because I have too many fonts installed. I think it's actually not showing up simply because it's a bold variation of a font. I think this may be by design in VectorWorks (and many Windows programs). Often, only the primary font shows up in a list, and the variations such as bold and italic are hidden and instead are accessed by choosing either bold or italic from the style menu.

For example, Arial Bold also doesn't show up in the font list. Arial Normal does, but the bold version of it (even though it has its own separate font file in Windows Control Panel) doesn't show up as its own entry in the font list. Instead to use that font, you would pick Arial in the font menu, then pick Bold off of the Style Menu. The Graphite font is behaving the same way, which I think is by design.

All I'm saying is that since the old version of the font didn't work this way (meaning you didn't use Bold from the style menu), it would be nice to be able to map it to the Bold version of the new font, which though it is a working font file, is hidden from the list simply because it is a bold version of a font.

But if it can't be done, I guess it can't be done.

Thanks for looking into it though...

Charlie Morrison

[Guest]

Okay try this -

Take out all of the Graphite fonts. Move them to a folder you create called fonts on the desktop. If the fonts are still in the windows fonts folder, delete them and empty the trash can.

Restart the computer. Without opening any application, place the graphite bold font in the windows fonts folder (Drag and drop is fine) from the fonts folder on the desktop.

Now launch VW and see if Grahite Bold shows up.

If it does, you can place the other fonts in there. Place plain graphite in last.

[Gerry]

I have a similar problem with the font Graphite MM. I'm running Vectorworks 10.5 on a Mac with OS X 10.2.6.

Regardless of which variation of the font I select, when I enter the text, it always changes to Bold Narrow.

The font is not corrupted, and it works fine (as it always did) in Vectorworks 9. All the versions of the font are showing up in the menu. But for some reason VW 10 refuses to let me select other versions of that font.

[Donald Wardlaw]

Yup me too.

Post script type I font, bold version, switches to book (a light version.) This on Mac, latest OS.

It looks very likely that this was a bug introduced in 10.5.0.

Regards,

Donald

[Guest]

Donald,

does yours work under VW 10.1.2 ?

Did you purchase the font suitcase?

Have you tried running Font Doctor to see if the suitcase is missing a component?

A MM font is not supported by OS 10 and you should contact Adobe to purchase an OS 10 compatible font suitcase.

[Donald Wardlaw]

does yours work under VW 10.1.2 ?

Yes, like it always has.

Did you purchase the font suitcase?

With Illustrator. I've been using it for years.

Have you tried running Font Doctor to see if the suitcase is missing a component?

No, I don't know why you are worrying about suitcases. Is that significant? I never pay attention to fonts. They existi in many locations including the top level library, the library in the system X folder and the extensions folder in the os9 folder. I must repeat I have no problems with any other application other than vw10. Is vw 10 more particular about where fonts are than it was in previous versions? I don't see anything that looks like suitcases. I note that others are having this problem on pcs.

A MM font is not supported by OS 10 and you should contact Adobe to purchase an OS 10 compatible font suitcase.

MM fonts have not worked right in vw since 9.5. The present problem is different. My problem font is not a MM.

I guess I could see if there is odd behavior with other fonts.

Did that. Yes there is. The problem is that vw is not accepting bold fonts. I can change to a bold font after creation. But anytime I edit a text block or create one, it slips back out of bold. This tells me that we are not dealing with a problem of a single corrupt font, since it seems to occur with more than one. See for yourself.

Regards,

Donald

[Guest]

The MM comment was to the other user with the MM font.

As for your Open Type font - yes you need to worry about font suitcases with OS 10!

Just about all fonts for OS X come in a suitcase, especially if you are getting them from Adobe.

If ANY component within a suitcase is corrupt, missing or duplicated somewhere on the computer in another fonts folder other than another user folder - you can have this problem.

This is why I asked if you had run Font Doctor.

You can download it at cnet.com/downloads or versiontracker.com.

The program will go thru the computer and see if fonts are missing components, corrupt or duplicated across the system causing problems like the one you describe.If you had the OT font with OS 9 and copied it over to OS X - it's more than likely missing the components needed for it to display properly.

[ 09-17-2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Katie ]

[Donald Wardlaw]

Katie,

Looking at the evidence,

Bold fonts changing to light fonts on both macs and pcs

Problems occur with issue of 10.5

Problems not limited to a particular font, happens with most font that offer light and bold varieties.

Same problem here on two differnent computers with different font installations,

No font difficulties in any other applications,

it is hard not to conclude that the problems are related to vw10.5.

I did spend $70 and a couple hours looking into this, roughly the cost of the upgrade, and Font Doctor is a nice piece of work. But I learned that the font problems here were minor, correctable and did not involve any corruption of the font I am having problem with in vw. I also learned that vw running in OSX does not seem to recognize fonts in the System Folder even though OSX does. The font I use is not open type but post script so the problem is not limited to open type. After letting Font Doctor do its thing, repair permission, there is no change at all in the font behavior in vw10.

Regards,

Donald

[Pharr]

Hi Donald & everyone,

It does look like there is an issue here, and we have been investigating it -- but it has been difficult for us to isolate it, compounded by the fact that some staff related to this area are on vacation. We are working on it and will post feedback when we have it.

Thanks!

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charlie Morrison:

I don't think the font is corrupted or isn't showing up because I have too many fonts installed. I think it's actually not showing up simply because it's a bold variation of a font. I think this may be by design in VectorWorks (and many Windows programs). Often, only the primary font shows up in a list, and the variations such as bold and italic are hidden and instead are accessed by choosing either bold or italic from the style menu.

For example, Arial Bold also doesn't show up in the font list. Arial Normal does, but the bold version of it (even though it has its own separate font file in Windows Control Panel) doesn't show up as its own entry in the font list. Instead to use that font, you would pick Arial in the font menu, then pick Bold off of the Style Menu. The Graphite font is behaving the same way, which I think is by design.

---

Charlie,

This all applies only to Windows:

In VW 9.5 there is a bug that is related to the way that Windows enumerates the fonts for VW. Windows always enumerates fonts in the order they are added to the font folder. VW 9 only looked at the first font for each font face and family. If 'Arial Bold' was added before 'Arial', VW would see 'Arial Bold' as the name of all fonts with a face name of 'Arial'. In the menu you would see 'Arial Bold' and not 'Arial' even though 'Arial Bold' refers to the Arial face name. This means if you select 'Arial Bold' you get 'Arial' and there is no 'Arial' in the menu. (FYI: 'Arial Narrow' is a different face name but 'Arial Bold' and 'Arial' and under the same face name. The face name, family name, and full font name are all set by the font maker and the rules about how style is used in them seem to vary.)

In VW 10 this bug was fixed, and in 10.5 a bug in the font mapping dialog was fixed. The font mapping bug caused VW to try and map 'Arial Bold' to 'Arial' when no mapping was needed. Please check 10.5 with these things in mind. VW should no longer omit fonts from the menu. The font menu in VW should contain the same fonts as WordPad minus any raster fonts. You will want to delete all your previous font mappings before opening your file in 10.5. You can do this by going to the VW Preferences dialog and clicking the 'Edit Font Mappings...' button on the Display tab. Let me know how things work.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Donald Wardlaw:

Problems occur with issue of 10.5

Problems not limited to a particular font, happens with most font that offer light and bold varieties.

---

Donald,

Is there different behavior between VW 10.1 and VW 10.5 on Mac OS 10.2.6?

Do you see problems in VW with mapping fonts at file open time?

I do see a problem with some fonts where, for example, 'Arial Narrow Bold' becomes 'Arial Narrow' after exiting text edit mode. I will look at what is happening here. I don't see any problems when using the style menu to make text bold. Can you verify this and let me know if you see problems here?

Thanks

[Donald Wardlaw]

Hello Robert,

Appreciate you taking the time to look into this.

<

Yes, definately. I had no problem with any version prior to 10.5.

<

I don't understand this question. "Mapping" is basically transparent to me unless you mean:

a. Whether I have problem with fonts showing up in the fonts menu;

or,

b. Whether you mean I have problems with fonts in the drawing which might give rise to a dialogue about substituting fonts.

The answer to "a", is no, all fonts are showing up in the menu, even the ones that are being messed with in the drawing. (But to do this the fonts must be in the Library/Fonts folder. If they are in the MacOS9 "System Folder/Fonts" then VW no longer see them. OSX recognizes fonts in multiple locations. So if I need the font for a Classic application, hopefully not much longer, I have to keep copies of the font in different locations, which Font Doctor says is not so hot)

The answer to "b" is that I am not getting any dialogues for substitutions. The drawing will display the bold variety and the font menu will report it correctly, *until* you edit the text block, then it changes. Problem is that files I am working on now have two varieties of my main font.

<>

THIS IS THE PROBLEM. This is what needs fixing, is broke, etc.

<

This is not the problem. I want to be able to use bold versions of font not the pseudo bold versions created by the style menu. The real bold versions of post script fonts are typographically different. Nicer. Just want it to work like it used to which was better looking and took a lot less time in drawing management.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Donald

[Donald Wardlaw]

Sorry about that last post, hope you can fill in the blanks. The items I put in side the less than/greater than symbols, a traditional method of quotes, was omitted by the board.

Donald

[Donald Wardlaw]

I do see a problem with some fonts where, for example, 'Arial Narrow Bold' becomes 'Arial Narrow' after exiting text edit mode.

This is what I refered to as the PROBLEM.

I will look at what is happening here. I don't see any problems when using the style menu to make text bold.

This is what I refered to as not the problem.

Apologies,

Donald

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Donald Wardlaw:

'Arial Narrow Bold' becomes 'Arial Narrow' after exiting text edit mode.

This is what I refered to as the PROBLEM.

---

Donald,

I am seeing this on OS 10.2.6 in VW 10.1 and I would expect it to happen in every release of VW 10 judging from what the code has been doing. Can you double check this and let me know what you find?

Thanks,

[Donald Wardlaw]

I am seeing this on OS 10.2.6 in VW 10.1 and I would expect it to happen in every release of VW 10 judging from what the code has been doing. Can you double check this and let me know what you find?

Robert,

You may well be right. It happens that I upgraded to 10, just as 10.1 went to 10.5. I also have an architect friend who mentioned a similar problem with 10.1. In his case the light version of his font was not installed, so it switched to an entirely different font, helvetica (!). They've been chasing font changes around their drawings for months.

I can only say that if I had switched to 10.1 sooner, and the problem had existed then, I would have reported it sooner.

Donald