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Worksheets are damaging to Vectorworks' reputation


Etienne_Mallee

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Hi Jeff,

 

Thanks for replying. I did do some training, and my trainer said he didn't know how to cleanly spread worksheets over multiple pages. I also spoke to my sales support people. Also said you couldn't do it. Can you point me to the training that shows me how to easily, consistently and 'scaleably' control how long worksheets can be broken up over multiple pages? If it is possible and I didn't find, I'll eat my post and apologise profusely. So how do I do it?

 

Etienne

 

 

Edited by Etienne_Mallee
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You can resize the worksheet on the sheet. If that doesn’t do it for you then it is not so easy. This issue has cropped before on this forum and is a feature request as I understand it. 
 

Depending on what data you are trying to pull you could try creating several worksheets with slightly different criteria. E.g. putting the source objects into 3 different classes so they can be spread across 3 different worksheets, or adding additional record fields to segregate them.

 

There is usually a work around. 
 

I have been using worksheets a lot over my 10 + years using the software and find them an invaluable tool. That said I keep my scheduling simple and concise wherever possible so have not often encountered the page sizing issue. 

 

Edited by Boh
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On 8/10/2022 at 9:42 PM, Etienne_Mallee said:

I have a plant schedule that is up to 20 pages long. Do I have to create 20 viewports? What happens if I add in one more plant and my whole viewport hack gets miss-aligned?  .... I'm literally spending days on this.


If you post a copy of the file, one of us will take a look at it and show you how to get what you want. Just describe exactly how the desired output should look, the sheet size, and the desired outcome such as “a plant list for just the plants appearing on each sheet or “a plant list the entire project”.

 

I’m guessing your issue is just a summarization oversight give you say it is 20 pages long.  I’ve worked on large public botanical gardens that don’t even have plant lists of such length, unless your pages are set up to be the size of index cards 🙂

 

5 hours ago, Etienne_Mallee said:

I did do some training, and my trainer said he didn't know how to cleanly spread worksheets over multiple pages. I also spoke to my sales support people. Also said you couldn't do it.

I’m kinda surprised the sales folks told you that, they must be pushing a competing product.  A vectorworks sales person will tell you the software will design things for you while it makes you a nice cappuccino 😉

 

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On 8/14/2022 at 7:01 PM, Boh said:

You can resize the worksheet on the sheet. If that doesn’t do it for you then it is not so easy. This issue has cropped before on this forum and is a feature request as I understand it. 
 

Depending on what data you are trying to pull you could try creating several worksheets with slightly different criteria. E.g. putting the source objects into 3 different classes so they can be spread across 3 different worksheets, or adding additional record fields to segregate them.

 

There is usually a work around. 
 

I have been using worksheets a lot over my 10 + years using the software and find them an invaluable tool. That said I keep my scheduling simple and concise wherever possible so have not often encountered the page sizing issue. 

 

 

Thanks for your comment, Boh. I have trawled the forums and am aware of the option of putting objects on different classes.... and then using filters to separate the lists. I guess all the workarounds I have found are workable to some extent. The challenge is when lists change, or when lists are huge and spread over multiple pages, then the layout has to be re-fiddled.... or the person doing the designing has to remember to put things on different classes ... that is, there isn't a logical separation between the model and the view (referring to the MVC paradigm).

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Hi Jeff,

 

Thanks again for your reply. I can attach the result I am trying to achieve. Attached is what we call a 'pictorial plant schedule' (this one is halfway finished). It is a document delivered to the client (usually residential garden) and is read in coordination with the plans. It allows the client to understand the plant selection as they read over the plans. It takes our office 1/2 a day to put these documents together, then they have to be cross-checked against the plans, and errors occur often. Hence the move to vectorworks.

 

Currently we have 4 plants per page. Layout doesn't have to be the same.

 

I have managed to produce something approaching this document in Vectorworks. But it is very difficult to get the height of each entry consistent, so that the next drawing doesn't need fiddling and re-adjusting. In other words, there is no real time-saving. Also I can't get different font styles (for the title, for example) because I concat several fields into one cell (and one cell can only have one font)... and a whole bunch of other layout challenges.

 

I've also tried printing directly from the worksheet UI. And this, at least, manages to break up the spreadsheet cleanly over several pages, but then the row indeces (on the left of the spreadsheet) are also printed out (and I also cannot easily include drawing dates and revisions and the like).

 

Etienne

Pictorial Plant Schedule - sample.pdf

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@Etienne_Mallee ah, this is more akin to a plant book for a project rather than a worksheet/plant schedule problem.

 

I started feeling like I was the only person here that made such books from my projects, nice to see you do the same.

Personally, I use a customized version of the Vectorworks FileMaker Pro plant database to create such books.  I don't think a worksheet or manually laying out such information within Vectorworks to be a worthwhile exercise in comparison.  Prior to Vectorworks, I had such information held in an Access database.  It should be clear, I'm a fan of the database solution 🙂

 

If you search the forum for "FileMaker" and my name, you'll find a lot of information that may be of interest.

 

Recent discussion on a similar topic...

 

 

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Thanks Jeff,

 

I haven't quite understood if you thus have a solution. It is fine for me if I have to go into the plant database and 'export' a report from there. The only thing I want to avoid is having 2 separate sources of truth. Does the database have knowledge of which plants are being used in a particular Vectorworks drawing?

 

I'm just after a proper BIM solution for maintaining plant lists used in a particular landscape design.

 

What about vectorscript? Could I use vectorscript to create my own "scaleable" worksheets? Could I use vectorscript to iterate through all the Plant Styles used in a drawing and lay them out on multiple sheets?

 

Etienne

 

 

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On 8/12/2022 at 12:26 PM, jeff prince said:

Great first post.

Sounds like somebody needs some training...

Im very inetrested in the training you are referring to for gettings chedules across multiple pages instead of having to create multiple Viewports?

 

We also have used filemaker to create the type of booklet/pictorial schedule you are doing - it should be simple, but you need a way to link your drawing back to filemaker - which we did by using a Project number.  But it just became too much work/too time consuming and no longer do it - plus each yearw e get told the plant catalgue database is getting deleted/updated so don't want to do work which will be wasted.

 

We would also liek to produce materials schedules in the way you are asking for with the palnt schedule.  However, we are still doing this in word due to the same VP crop problems you refer to - the same issue applies to Specifications create from the notes database - you ahve to manually create VP, and the numebring can't be edited - so you can't create multiple columns of text and then a separate one and have the numerbing continuous - unless I ahve totally missed something.  We only use VW for our Plant Specifications and it is very annoying when you need to add one/delete one and ahve to resize/crop all on the sheet space. 

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3 hours ago, Etienne_Mallee said:

Thanks Jeff,

 

I haven't quite understood if you thus have a solution. It is fine for me if I have to go into the plant database and 'export' a report from there. The only thing I want to avoid is having 2 separate sources of truth. Does the database have knowledge of which plants are being used in a particular Vectorworks drawing?

 

I'm just after a proper BIM solution for maintaining plant lists used in a particular landscape design.

 

What about vectorscript? Could I use vectorscript to create my own "scaleable" worksheets? Could I use vectorscript to iterate through all the Plant Styles used in a drawing and lay them out on multiple sheets?

 

Etienne

 

 

 

Hi Etienne

 

I think people are giving you slightly confusing advice here.

 

The fact is, it's not possible to do what you want cleanly in Vectorworks. This is a quite well known issue - it's not you doing something wrong or missing something. The workaround is to make the giant worksheet on one design layer, then use viewports to view different sections of it over multiple sheets/pages. This at least means there's one worksheet that everything refers back to, but requires a bit of fiddling with the viewports to make sure everything is visible.

 

You are right that this is currently a fairly major failing of VW, especially if it wants to pretend to be a proper BIM package.

 

See this thread for the workaround:

 

 

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25 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Hi Etienne

 

I think people are giving you slightly confusing advice here.

 

The fact is, it's not possible to do what you want cleanly in Vectorworks. This is a quite well known issue - it's not you doing something wrong or missing something. The workaround is to make the giant worksheet on one design layer, then use viewports to view different sections of it over multiple sheets/pages. This at least means there's one worksheet that everything refers back to, but requires a bit of fiddling with the viewports to make sure everything is visible.

 

You are right that this is currently a fairly major failing of VW, especially if it wants to pretend to be a proper BIM package.

 

See this thread for the workaround:

 

 

 

But as is pointed out in that thread the split-viewport-of-worksheet technique is not working in VW2022 for some reason: when you split the VP the worksheet disappears... Not sure if anyone has filed a bug on this...

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9 hours ago, Etienne_Mallee said:

I haven't quite understood if you thus have a solution.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are trying to make plant books based on general information about the plants (per your attached example), not worksheets on your drawings.  If this is the case, the database is your “sole source of truth” of general information, the model just reports which plants are used on the project.  There are several ways to create plant books from the database and methods of automatically printing the plants used on a project, but this is more of a custom FileMaker workflow than a vectorworks one.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Etienne,

 

Just skimming through here. As a note, the database is a great resource and can be used along with the catalogs. If you choose to leverage them to your needs that may and can be possible. I however like to use them as a general lookup volume. If I need more embedded data, I add a custom plant record format (or two, or three) depending on my needs. These are often regional data. As for publishing books. While we all love Vectorworks, it is not a book publisher. I have always utilized other tools such as Pages, Word or Indesign for this. This process allows me to design a master sheet layout and populate as many high res pictures and custom information in the format and layout style I choose. I then have one big master book with a plant per page with seasonal pictures, leaf and flower pictures, bark images, along with species data, and care instructions. All while having a creative layout and my logo and contact info. I would then select the plant types from the master and copy them into the client document that is titled for their job. I used the same for furnishings and lighting and well... everything. We had a spiral binder so these were a fantastic addition to provide. As for images in Vectorworks. I created unique symbols for these botanicals allowing for a more creative way to produce plant imagery within Vectorworks. This takes the gridded confines of a database away, giving me creative presentations. 

Hope this helps a bit, feel free to reach out to me if you have any further questions. I am always happy to help find a solution that works best for you specific situation or need while creating rapid and profitable workflows.

 

Quick sample attached.

IMG_0775.jpg

IMG_0776.jpg

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Maybe I'm missing something here because I'm not a landscape designer and so I don't know the exact needs of this specific type of schedule.

 

However the OP's question is very clear - it's about generating schedules using VW worksheets, and how these become very difficult to manage once they pass a certain size.

 

Everyone seems to be telling them to use some separate application to generate this schedule - but the whole point of having worksheets in VW is that the information in them is directly tied to what's in the drawings and they update in synchrony.

 

The issue described is familiar to everyone who's tried to use worksheets whether it's plant schedules or window schedules or drawing issue sheets. In many of these cases it's really critical that the info in the drawings and in the schedules stays in sync.

 

Of course it's true that there are some things where you have to move to another application to do a certain job. But often there are things you can do inside VW to save time and potential error. For example, I'll often make presentation sheets in VW, which you might ideally do in some kind of graphics/publishing package, because keeping it all in VW means you can have a mix of text, other stuff and drawings that pull directly from the main drawing file. When the design gets updated, you don't have to export a load of plans and renders and so on and then re-import them into some other document, they get updated there on the VW sheets.

 

Given that VW is sold quite heavily on the "efficient workflow" (keeping multiple design stages within the same file/program) basis, and given it wants to be a serious BIM package, then it really ought to be able to deal with worksheets much better than it can at the moment. Expectations should be realistic - but the expectation that you can easily spread a large worksheet over multiple pages surely isn't asking too much in 2022.

 

@Etienne_Mallee is quite right that it's pretty embarrassing that VW still can't do this!

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

As for creating smaller lists. I will use many options, some of which are lists specific to Tree, Shrubs, Perennials. Also specific to region or area of the design. Such as Parking lot plants, Front Yard, Back Yard, Phase 1. This often breaks down the size of the list to manageable pieces vs an extremely long list.

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

Maybe I'm missing something here because I'm not a landscape designer and so I don't know the exact needs of this specific type of schedule.

 

However the OP's question is very clear - it's about generating schedules using VW worksheets, and how these become very difficult to manage once they pass a certain size.


the OP said one thing which sounded like Schedules via worksheet, but provided an example that is more of a book of plants lacking typical schedule information.  This is why you are seeing different suggestions.

 

If they want a book, there are many data driven or graphics tools for such endeavors.  Personally, I like a database because it allows for creative layout AND data connectivity.  Doing so in a word publisher or layout application is good too, but then you lose the BIM connectivity the OP wants.

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Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'll just reply to the below.

 

7 hours ago, line-weight said:

Given that VW is sold quite heavily on the "efficient workflow" (keeping multiple design stages within the same file/program) basis, and given it wants to be a serious BIM package, then it really ought to be able to deal with worksheets much better than it can at the moment. Expectations should be realistic - but the expectation that you can easily spread a large worksheet over multiple pages surely isn't asking too much in 2022.

 

@Etienne_Mallee is quite right that it's pretty embarrassing that VW still can't do this!

 

Thanks @line-weight ... yes you've understood. Not only for purposes of workflow efficiency, but also minimizing error, avoiding two sources of truth, saving time and genuinely abiding by BIM thinking, it is crazy that information contained in a VW file must then be duplicated in another software package (whether it be Word, Excel or whatever)... and just because VW doesn't offer a way to spill a worksheet over several pages.

 

It doesn't matter if you call the output a 'book', a 'pictorial plant schedule', or a 'plant catalog', or whatever. The designer specifies objects in a drawing. All of the necessary object info (including images) is already contained within the VW file .... it is just that VW doesn't have the chops to layout the info over several pages. It's crazy. All the data is there, you just can't easily get it out (unless it fits one 1 page!).
 

 

6 hours ago, bgoff said:

As for creating smaller lists. I will use many options, some of which are lists specific to Tree, Shrubs, Perennials. Also specific to region or area of the design. Such as Parking lot plants, Front Yard, Back Yard, Phase 1. This often breaks down the size of the list to manageable pieces vs an extremely long list.

 

Thanks for your replies bgoff. We've been using Word to make these plant workbooks ... and errors happen all the time. Changes to the drawing are not reflected in the workbook (someone forgets to go back and also change the workbook), or a plant or two is missing. This means we have to constantly go back and review, check. This is what BIM is supposed to solve. And this is the main reason we moved to Vectorworks (promise of BIM + Plant database).

 

I think it is poor practice for information contained within file to be structured so as to workaround layout limitations. (but of course, I understand its necessity).

 

Etienne

 

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Here's my suggestion for the feature wish:

 

Make a 'Spilling Worksheet Viewport'.

 

It has 2 key characteristics:

 

1) the rows (and columns) of the worksheet are automatically hidden if the viewport crop line goes over them.

2) if a viewport crop line goes over a row or column, automatically create 2 (or more) viewports that accommodates those hidden rows / columns. Those 'spilling' viewports are not editable (you can't click into them), but they can be moved. Those 'spilling' viewports are always exactly the same size as the original. (spilling rows would create extra viewports to the south of the original, and spilling columns would create extra viewports to the east of the original)

 

To see how this might work, just go into any Excel document and hit 'print'. Actually it even works if you go into a VW worksheet and hit 'print' (i.e. the code is already there somewhere!)

 

And whilst you are in the Worksheet code ... fix up:

 

- vertical text doesn't wrap

- rotating images makes them disappear

- you can't rotate a worksheet

 

And make it easy to specify a fixed height to each row (like is currently possible for images in the row). That means that we could make each row the exact height of a quarter of a page and the spilling will be controllable and clean.

 

And if you want to do it like Archicad (I know) or Revit (as far as I know), allow Worksheets to be layed out horizontally as well as vertically. (i.e. choose to go across rather than just down).

 

Etienne

 

I should add ... I have successfully created a Sheet Layer that has an A4 page width and 10 A4 page height .. .and printing this (via PDF or printer) seems to successfully split contents over several pages.

 

Edited by Etienne_Mallee
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If you place your trust in containing your data in Vectorworks Plant Objects with Styles exclusively, you effectively tie yourself to the platform or will pay the piper when you try to migrate to another if you manage extensive plant data.

 

It was easy coming from AutoCAD having an extensive plant database in Access which was then  migrated to FileMaker to more effectively work on Mac + Vectorworks. It will be easy for me to move to something else should the need arise.  Databases also allow you to import data from wholesale growers and vast scientific resources such as the USDA.. 

 

BIM is more than drawing platforms.  Vectorworks has no handling of Specifications writing, so I wonder what all of these “the drawing is the sole source of truth” are actually doing to mange the other critical parts of project delivery.  Further, once a project is preparing for and under construction, there is a whole world of project critical information that exists outside the drawings/models, that function independently and complimentary to drawings.  It’s not unusual to hold information in databases, one could argue it is fundamental in modern AEC project administration.  Our drawings, at their core, are merely graphic representations of a database…

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2 hours ago, jeff prince said:

If you place your trust in containing your data in Vectorworks Plant Objects with Styles exclusively, you effectively tie yourself to the platform or will pay the piper when you try to migrate to another if you manage extensive plant data.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Sure, I can see that perhaps the best AEC project architecture is to have an external database as the single source of truth. I guess, then, that CAD packages should have both the ability to read from and write to that database, so that other software can also interact with it. If I understand right Vectorworks cannot write to FileMaker? (the database would also need to have the ability to 'push' modified data to the relevant external software packages).

 

For me, right now, doing small landscaping projects, all I need is for Vectorworks to be able to cleanly spread one worksheet over several pages. For a small project, and even a medium project, it would make sense for the CAD file to act as the default database.

 

Etienne

 

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5 hours ago, jeff prince said:

Vectorworks has no handling of Specifications writing, so I wonder what all of these “the drawing is the sole source of truth” are actually doing to mange the other critical parts of project delivery.

 

For small projects my spec is often contained in the drawings, either as written "dumb" text or as notes on drawings which can be managed to some extent by the notes manager.

 

I've seen the notes manager as an early step on the route to some kind of proper specification management within VW but maybe that's hoping for too much?

 

The reason I don't use external databases (so far) is simply that it doesn't seem worth learning a new bit of software, and probably fighting various import/export/sync problems, for small projects where the information can be managed within Vectorworks.

 

Even with external databases though, presumably people will still want to pull information into VW worksheets and include it in drawing sheets? In which case the ability to split it into multiple viewports will still be an issue.

 

Vectorworks also is set up to create drawing issue/revision information as worksheets - and these can easily become too large to comfortably fit in a single viewport.

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