Rotating User Origin

[Jack2022]

Hi All,

 

We need to align our landscape model with the architect's model and engineer's. Our model is aligned to true north - theirs to orthogonal on the x/y axis of the software. I can position our model in the correct location (very near Internal Origin) while retaining true Northing and Easting readouts by setting the User Origin where it needs to be relative to the Internal Origin. Problem arises where I need to rotate our model to align with theirs. User Origin coordinates do not rotate with the model obviously. 

 

Is there a way to not only move User Origin to maintain true project coordinates but also rotate User Origin to compensate for our model rotating to match theirs? 

 

Thanks 

 

Jack

[Your Name Here]

The easy thing to do….

place their models into individual vectorworks files in their native position and orientations.  “Design layer viewport Reference” those new vectorworks files into yours.  You can then rotate and position their work to suit yours.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

Hi, there are a few question-marks here, but first of all - are you trying to import the architect's drawing to yours, or yours into their file? I'm only asking as there are different considerations depending of which way the exchange goes. Yes, if you're referencing the architect building into your file, then you can theoretically just manually move the building into the correct place, rotate it and use your coordinate system, but if you're sending them your file, you have to make sure you both are speaking the same language.

The problem comes when the architect is setting up their file in Project North (which is understandably the easiest way for them to work). I'm taking it for granted here that the architect file you're working with is setup correctly with the project north and project coordinates, not just 0,0 in the bottom left corner of the building.

 

You're doing it correctly in your end by setting up your file with your project close to the Internal Origin and aligning the User Origin so you get the correct cartesian coordinates in your file - this is perfect if you don't have to consider incoming files. However, to ensure smooth collaboration, you must make sure that everyone collaborating on the project have the files setup with the same Internal Origin.

When this is the case, you can import (or reference) your file into the architect file and rotate it around the Internal origin (or the other way around). This will keep the coordinate system correct. Please note that it has to rotate around the Internal Origin, not the User Origin.

I would suggest asking them for the Internal Origin's geographical or cartesian coordinates and then make sure you have your file set up with the same IO (this is normally the way it goes, as a project mostly starts with the architect and the landscape has to align to what is already setup).

 

This will give you a solid workflow for whatever you want to do with the files later.

I've added a link below to a document on Revit collaboration - it talks a lot about the issue with origins and how to collaborate between landscape and architecture. even if you don't collaborate with a Revit user, there are a lot of very useful directions in it.

 

Let me know how you get along.

 

https://www.vectorworks.net/ebooks/Revit-Interoperability-with-Vectorworks-Landmark-A-Guide

 

 

[shorter]

@Jack2022 

 

You should not need to make any adjustments or jump through hoops in Vectorworks because they should have sent coordinated data to you in the first place.

 

Is there a 'BIM Execution Plan' (BEP) for the project?  If not, then someone should compose one asap.  Attempting BIM without one is 'BIM without a plan'.

 

The BEP will define how data is to be issued according to an agreed coordinate system, orientation, project origin, levels, naming conventions, and file format, etc, but also, if it's any good how all softwares used on the project are to be set up to ensure all data, including 2D and 3D data, is coordinated.

 

You should also ask for specific information that helps you do your job, and they should not be issuing any old rubbish to you.  Good BIM is based on the old adage of 'Right Information, Right Person, Right Time'.

 

For example, do you actually need a model to determine where their building is, or a model to determine heights, or would a coordinated 2D ground floor plan as DWG, and an excel spreadsheet detailing levels be sufficient to help you set out your landscape?  BIM is not just 3D, remember.  BIM is about coordination in whatever form that takes.  Simple coordination is often overlooked at the alter of BIM.

 

Don't ask for or accept a Revit file.  You should insist on exchanging coordinated IFC and 2D DWG data. 

 

If a Revit model has a shared coordinate system, i.e. one that establishes true north and the site coordinate system within the Revit model, currently Vectorworks 2022 cannot import the Revit model relative to that shared coordinate system.  This may change in future versions. of course.

 

Whereas you can with IFC and 2D DWG. 

 

Ask for IFC for the 3D model, and 2D DWG for an accurate rendition of their ground floor plan because you won't get that from either the Revit model or the IFC because IFC is not about 2D exchange.

 

Ask for both to be issued from 'shared coordinates' and specifically, the DWG must be from modelspace.

 

If they have set up Revit correctly, the shared coordinate system will export the IFC and DWG in site coordinates, and true north, and this will then align correctly with your data, assuming you have set up your project template correctly and your internal origins are aligned.

 

 

 

 

[shorter]

Oh, by the way, re: coordination with Revit, if you use a custom geo-referencing setting, e.g. EPSG 27700, and have a user origin defined, and then export a DWG with the 'export geo-referenced file' ticked, Revit cannot link the DWG relative to the coordinate defined by the user origin.

 

If the geo-referencing is set to WGS84, there is no problem since the 'export as geo-referenced file' is turned off by default.  Not sure which side of the fence this bug is, but worth noting.

 

[Jack2022]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:00 PM, shorter said:

@Jack2022 

 

You should not need to make any adjustments or jump through hoops in Vectorworks because they should have sent coordinated data to you in the first place.

 

Is there a 'BIM Execution Plan' (BEP) for the project?  If not, then someone should compose one asap.  Attempting BIM without one is 'BIM without a plan'.

 

The BEP will define how data is to be issued according to an agreed coordinate system, orientation, project origin, levels, naming conventions, and file format, etc, but also, if it's any good how all softwares used on the project are to be set up to ensure all data, including 2D and 3D data, is coordinated.

 

You should also ask for specific information that helps you do your job, and they should not be issuing any old rubbish to you.  Good BIM is based on the old adage of 'Right Information, Right Person, Right Time'.

 

For example, do you actually need a model to determine where their building is, or a model to determine heights, or would a coordinated 2D ground floor plan as DWG, and an excel spreadsheet detailing levels be sufficient to help you set out your landscape?  BIM is not just 3D, remember.  BIM is about coordination in whatever form that takes.  Simple coordination is often overlooked at the alter of BIM.

 

Don't ask for or accept a Revit file.  You should insist on exchanging coordinated IFC and 2D DWG data. 

 

If a Revit model has a shared coordinate system, i.e. one that establishes true north and the site coordinate system within the Revit model, currently Vectorworks 2022 cannot import the Revit model relative to that shared coordinate system.  This may change in future versions. of course.

 

Whereas you can with IFC and 2D DWG. 

 

Ask for IFC for the 3D model, and 2D DWG for an accurate rendition of their ground floor plan because you won't get that from either the Revit model or the IFC because IFC is not about 2D exchange.

 

Ask for both to be issued from 'shared coordinates' and specifically, the DWG must be from modelspace.

 

If they have set up Revit correctly, the shared coordinate system will export the IFC and DWG in site coordinates, and true north, and this will then align correctly with your data, assuming you have set up your project template correctly and your internal origins are aligned.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Shorter,

 

the BIM coordinator has made a BEP and provided project base point coordinates, survey point coords (same as PBP), rotation from true north and all the procedures. however the BEP assumes only Revit is used. What do I do with this coordinate info in Vectorworks? Do I need to set my internal origin to the project base point?

 

If I import their revit model it appears very close to my internal origin. if I move and rotate my model to match their model then they receive it fine their end when I export as an IFC. I originally used their 2d DWG files to position my model however their DWGs appear in real space whereas their model appears near my internal origin. 

 

Obviously I can't build my model in real space otherwise it would be miles from the internal origin. 

 

Any more help would be appreciated - maybe a step by step of how to use the BEP coords in my file?

 

Jack

[shorter]

Have they sent a Revit model or an IFC?

[Jack2022]

Revit and DWG so far - I have requested an IFC. as mentioned their DWGs import in real space coords and thats where we started our model but have now moved it near internal origin (about where their Revit model imports)

 

Ultimately under our contract the Architect is lead and we need to make provisions so our model imports directly aligned with theirs. 

 

Thanks

[shorter]

But they need to issue their model to you correctly in the first place and help you make sure it's coordinated, otherwise someone is not doing their job properly as BIM coordinator on the project.

 

If they send you an IFC, from shared coordinates, you will be able to set up their model in site coordinates/real world coordinates, whereas you cannot if you import Revit.

 

Your internal origin and their internal origin should be set to the same coordinate, and this should be defined in the BEP.

Edited August 10, 2022 by shorter

[shorter]

On the other hand, if there is agreement to share models in 'local' coordinates, i.e. in revit 'project coordinates', then you need DWG, IFC and RVT exported from 'Internal Coordinates', aligned 'Project North'.

 

It would be odd to do this, however.

[Jack2022]

It seems both our models (my VW and their Revit) appear to share the internal origin point despite us not manually setting it. ie their model imports near my default internal origin and when they import my IFC it appears In position relative to their model as I see it on my screen. 

 

Even stranger the BIM coordinator using Navisworks to combine models has everything appear in the correct location regardless of where I locate my model.

 

Something is probably being lost in translation across consultants

[shorter]

It will if the internal origins are aligned.

 

Too much emphasis is placed on 'global coordinates'.

 

But, when sharing models, the location of the internal origin is critical.  It MUST be in the same place in all models, relative to the model.

 

You have not achieved 'Coordination' if the origins are not aligned.

 

'Global Coordinates' in all software, incl. Revit, is an applied coordinate system, i.e. a secondary coordinate system artificially applied to the file.  Models never exist in true global coordinates.

 

We assist with a lot of level 2 projects, and with BIM accreditation.  We have learned the hard way, particularly when revit users did not know their origins from their elbows...

 

Now that Revit has revealed it's internal origin, apparently they are all the rage.

Edited August 11, 2022 by shorter

[Jack2022]

Thanks Shorter.

 

Im beginning to piece together fragments of what I need to know. To simplify the discussion and hopefully get to a resolution - How do I use the below info to set up a new vectorworks model? It's the shared coordinates info. Is there a step by step that specifically addresses this? Is there somewhere to input this info into the file?

 

Kind regards,

 

Jack

[Christiaan]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:20 AM, Jack2022 said:

Thanks Shorter.

 

Im beginning to piece together fragments of what I need to know. To simplify the discussion and hopefully get to a resolution - How do I use the below info to set up a new vectorworks model? It's the shared coordinates info. Is there a step by step that specifically addresses this? Is there somewhere to input this info into the file?

 

Kind regards,

 

Jack

Jack, I'm going assume you got past this point already, but the answer to your question is this extremely good tutorial by Martyn Horne:

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/page/view.php?id=1349 

 

If you're part of the UK BIM Level 2 Group you can also download all the very useful files associated with this tutorial:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/clubs/3-uk-bim-level2/

 

Edit: actually I've just spotted your very good post here, thanks:
https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/102945-aligning-vectorworks-and-revit-models-for-bim-for-almost-beginners/&do=findComment&comment=449673

 

[shorter]

Sadly it’s even more complicated than this…