Vectorworks abandoning perpetual licences

[shorter]

20 hours ago, line-weight said:

If one could know (and we can't) that there would be a reliable supply of second hand licences well into the future then a viable strategy might be to buy a secondhand perpetual licence every 2 or 3 years, skipping 2-3 versions ahead at each stage. And you could choose to buy these such that they were already at their final SP release for each version.

 

It will be interesting to see what the going price tends to be, for a secondhand copy of VW, now. Due the fact that you can no longer use it as a step along an upgrade path, it ought to be rather lower than it was a few years ago.

 

I am not sure it is, with some asking £1500 for 2021, for example!

[shorter]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:22 AM, Christiaan said:

This is from the 2020 NBS National BIM Report, although it's in the context on BIM.

 

 

One year this looked very different, and the charts showed Vectorworks at 30% (if I recall correctly).  The NBS then threw cold water on their own survey saying there must have been an error for Vectorworks use to be so high!

[shorter]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:57 AM, _James said:

Zinger!

😉

[line-weight]

Came across this video; firstly it looks at how the cost of using Cinema4D has increased substantially since subscription pricing came in, secondly it looks at the cost of using Blender with paid add-ons as an alternative.

 

Of course, we may never see a free, open-source Blender-like CAD/BIM application that could compete with VW, but the video seems relevant to this thread.

 

 

[JMR]

A few thoughts. Last spring I paid for two annual VW subscriptions, 1700e or so each, for two new employees. After three months the building industry ground to an almost complete halt and  many ongoing design jobs were put to ice. Suddenly there was no work for all of us. Annual subscriptions cannot be suspended or "parked", stated my vendor.  I thought I had already paid for a year of use (beforehand, full amount) and not for a particular product.  So, factually, I ended up paying about 570e per month per seat for these licenses, since the work situation hasn't improved and very likely will not this winter. I cannot help  feeling that I was stolen money from.

 

From now on it's only monthly licenses for new employees, no matter how solid the job situation looks. Or another software product from the same parent company.

 

 

[zoomer]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:46 AM, line-weight said:

secondly it looks at the cost of using Blender with paid add-ons as an alternative.

 

I think if you are using Blender professionally, you may want to donate to support further development by own interest. Or you may even want to support Blender by providing time for beta testing, bug reports or feature request. Something to take into account.

But you can of course use it for free if you prefer. Also most prices for external Blender AddOns are kind of an offer. In most cases you can also "buy" them by offering a fair price of 0.00 €.

 

On 3/13/2024 at 11:46 AM, line-weight said:

open-source Blender-like CAD/BIM application that could compete with VW

 

As I am currently try to learn Blender finally a bit more seriously ....

coming from a Modo user's standpoint, although I used C4D only for a decade, just because of VW Exchange. Modo was an overall brilliant and effective App as Microstation was in 3D CAD.

(Foundry now killed Modo officially - something to consider if you make yourself dependent from a proprietary solution)

 

Blender looks still a bit far behind in most basic tasks like Selection, Snaps, Geometry Management and all such things you have taken for granted from your experience with other Apps.

On the other hand learning Blender feels a lot like when I switched to VW, lots of hidden non self-explanatory things you just have to know to use it.
I needed about 3 years before I could say I felt comfortable and fast with VW. I think I reached half of that VW level in Blender already too, in just 2 month.

Although I still did not have any, oh that is brilliant moments (like in Modo), in Blender so far. Blender isn't bad at all overall though.

 

But as much as i would prefer Modo over C4D (Blender works nearly the same) for a 3D App, for CAD, I do not like the Mechanical CAD approach of FreeCAD for CAD or BIM. Or any Autocad behaviors. For me these are unintuitive.

That could be different or much easier if I would not have other CAD App experience and just started with these workflows.

 

But the more I learn Bonsai, former called BlenderBIM AddOn, from a pure IFC standpoint, that is the best and fastest developing "vertical App" on Blender from all my BIM solutions or viewers with the best and comprehending IFC support I have ever seen.

 

Generally I still prefer the CAD/BIM (parametric Tools)/Solid Modeling approach over typical 3D Mesh or Mechanical approach and would like to go on doing that in my proprietary Apps like VW or Bricscad as long as possible or reasonable.

I just see that (all) proprietary Apps do not show enough ambitions to allow a relatively lossless exchange with other or even OSS Apps. (Speckle (!) anyone)

And this lossy exchange is what makes me think, that I can not exclude, to finally end up at Blender/Bonsai as my only App - in a not so far future.

Edited December 9, 2024 by zoomer

[line-weight]

In the earlier pages of this thread it was suggested that the move to the subscription model would allow VW to invest more heavily in development and we'd see a significant increase in the pace of improvements to the software.

 

Two years on, do we think we've seen this?

 

We are still waiting for most of those core tools, the things like windows, doors, stairs, roof faces, walls, that have urgently needed attention for years, to be updated.

 

As usual my criticisms aren't aimed at any indviduals within VW, but the company policy that directs how much resource is dedicated to developing the software.

[Art V]

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 PM, zoomer said:

On the other hand learning Blender feels a lot like when I switched to VW, lots of hidden non self-explanatory things you just have to know to use it.

You could take a look at humblebundle.com, they regularly have book or software bundles for learning software, programming etc. including Blender, Unreal engine, python etc. at considerable discounts.

Last month they had a Blender core skills bundle for approximately 35 USD though you are free to spend more to extra support the charity to which part of the payment goes to, whereas at CG Cookie (where the bundle came from) is more expensive. CG Cookie is a learning/tutorials website for Blender with a monthly or yearly subscription but they do have free tutorials as well.

 

Maybe useful to know if you want to model things that you cannot (yet) model in VW as easily as in Blender or only at considerable more cost.

[zoomer]

1 hour ago, Art V said:

Maybe useful to know if you want to model things that you cannot (yet) model in VW as easily as in Blender or only at considerable more cost.

 

For me, Blender was mainly thought as a replacement for C4D and Modo, where I lost  maintenance a few years ago. And I am already at a level where I can do my work with it for my Visualization needs. Even at 80% of knowing those secret "you have to know" things that allow to work comfortable. And already bought a few quite impressing AddOns to fill my workflow gaps.

As a friend of destructive modeling and/or rectilinear modern architecture, watching all those videos about parametric and iterative architecture sketching in Blender, I learned to be more open about such history based workflows and free form geometry. So I think I will make more use of those workflows and may also translate that to VW (with Marionette ?) or to Bricscad.

 

But for now, for sketching standard architecture or 2D stuff, for now, I would still go with VW, or depending on Style and Project type with Bricscad.

But what I will avoid in future (for my Visualization purposes) is my current ambition to do high detailed BIM modeling in VW. Wasting time to fight with Wall Closures, Curtain Walls, by Component Connections and Story Levels to try to force them to the details killed all fun in modeling for me.
And Blender's lack of such features in this case really helps to focus on important things.

Edited January 4 by zoomer

[zoomer]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:15 AM, line-weight said:

Two years on, do we think we've seen this?

 

I was also curious for this second, so first real "Subscription only", year "2025".

What I saw was a bit less and less impressing features for a release - not a big issue,

I experienced that once and a while since starting with VW 2014. I am more concerned that VW 2025 is still one of the most unreliable releases I can ever remember. Usually all releases had issues - but usually I was not much affected with my standard single monitor setup. Usually SP0 was totally OK and for me issues usually arisen only in SP 2-4, but VW 2025 feels really strange to me. Can be just a small VW development hiccup, could also sign the end of an CAD era. Who knows.

 

 

 

[ParkerJames]

2 hours ago, zoomer said:

 

I was also curious for this second, so first real "Subscription only", year "2025".

What I saw was a bit less and less impressing features for a release - not a big issue,

I experienced that once and a while since starting with VW 2014. I am more concerned that VW 2025 is still one of the most unreliable releases I can ever remember. Usually all releases had issues - but usually I was not much affected with my standard single monitor setup. Usually SP0 was totally OK and for me issues usually arisen only in SP 2-4, but VW 2025 feels really strange to me. Can be just a small VW development hiccup, could also sign the end of an CAD era. Who knows.

 

 

 

For the most part 2025 has been fine for residential modeling. There are some new features that seem unhelpful and others that take time to learn for a small return. Having said that I have experienced a bunch of freezes and outright crashes.

 

 

[bcd]

1 hour ago, ParkerJames said:

freezes and outright crashes.

and glitchy selections here too

[MaWi]

17 hours ago, ParkerJames said:

For the most part 2025 has been fine for residential modeling. There are some new features that seem unhelpful and others that take time to learn for a small return. Having said that I have experienced a bunch of freezes and outright crashes.

I'm very happy with the new features (I use some of them almost every day) and Vectorworks runs very stable on a three-year-old MacBook Pro M1. However, I have 64GB of RAM, but I also work on really large BIM projects.

My top list of 2025 features:
- Object Visibility
- On-Screen View Control
- Room Finishes
- Two Point Perspective

[ParkerJames]

3 hours ago, MaWi said:

I'm very happy with the new features (I use some of them almost every day) and Vectorworks runs very stable on a three-year-old MacBook Pro M1. However, I have 64GB of RAM, but I also work on really large BIM projects.

My top list of 2025 features:
- Object Visibility
- On-Screen View Control
- Room Finishes
- Two Point Perspective

Thanks for the feature list. I just watched the coffee break on room finishes.

Its integral to spaces and I have only used spaces for one project, but this seems worth looking further.

[line-weight]

The new features are fine and good. The problem as ever is the lack of progress in fixing all the "old features" which most of us would use every day if we could.

[zoomer]

4 hours ago, MaWi said:

However, I have 64GB of RAM, but I also work on really large BIM projects.

 

I also have a 4 year 😲 old 16 GB M1 Mini and I will see in the near future if more RAM will help. (being delayed - looks like these M4s are still hard to get)
It maybe especially VW 2025 SP2.1 only, but since I see even more all kind of trust killing issues in VW 2025 lately. Drawing View shifting when undoing, snapping point ignorance, visibility issues, memory leaks (1 Nurbs Face + 1 4-solid Object + Surface array cascading to 32 GB ?), zooming oddities, .... so basically most of them graphic issues. Something must have changed with VGM (?)

 

But memory consumption in general, usually I examine my projects in multiple Apps beside VW, I do not get why VW always needs about 3 times as much memory than any else.
It looks like I can open the same recent size project at a time in 3 Blenders, 1 Bricscad plus even 1 C4D and 1 Modo and switch between them easily. It works as Apple promised shared dynamic memory with SSD swapping and It looks l like that would work well with only 8 GB memory too.
It is just when VW is involved, memory pressure gets brownish easily and everything lags.

Edited January 5 by zoomer

[ParkerJames]

I am running a MacStudio M1 Max with 32GB. So I doubt these things are memory related.

Also experiencing irregular snapping.

Most aggravating is often not able to join walls unless in Top Plan view.

Same goes for inserting symbols into walls.

Edited January 5 by ParkerJames

[MaWi]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

The new features are fine and good. The problem as ever is the lack of progress in fixing all the "old features" which most of us would use every day if we could.

I'm active in reporting bugs myself and in the last 2.5 years over 200 of my reported bugs have been fixed. The oldest bugs are from Vectorworks 2011 and about 50% of the fixed bugs are from Vectorworks 2020 and older. So I can confirm that many old bugs are still being fixed, especially when the area of the bug is being further developed (f.ex. mode bar). Nevertheless, every bug that is still there annoys me too ;-) 

[MaWi]

1 hour ago, ParkerJames said:

Most aggravating is often not able to join walls unless in Top Plan view.

Do you work with blank walls, i.e. walls without a fill? I know the behavior from there.

[ParkerJames]

3 minutes ago, MaWi said:

Do you work with blank walls, i.e. walls without a fill? I know the behavior from there.

This is not practical, In my world.

Changes are made to a model regularly. Also, I re-use walls from project to project….unless I misunderstand you.

[MaWi]

44 minutes ago, ParkerJames said:

unless I misunderstand you

Perhaps 🙂

Do you work with walls without components and the fill attributes of the wall are set to "None"?

[Ross Harris]

Walls are a bit janky in the joining side of things... Try rearranging a T junctionby dragging walls; you can't unless you disconnect a wall first, then have to use a tool to reconnect them if they misbehave when trying to drag the end to rejoin. In going back to revit, you can move any wall and any junction with out it either breaking or having to dismantle the junction, which I had totally forgotten about... And is just how you expect a modern BIM app to work.  Added bonus are helper dimensions that pop up (which you can turn into an actual dimension) when you select a wall so you can punch in a dimension without having to put a dimension in place. 

With all the 'wall reengineering'thats been done all we have to show for it is two iterations of wall closures....

The big problem is that new features or enhancements get 90% to being awesome... And are totally forgotten. Looking at you structural member..

There doesn't seem to be a big picture vision for usability and consistancy - development seems very siloed.

Edited January 5 by Ross Harris

[ParkerJames]

4 minutes ago, MaWi said:

Perhaps 🙂

Do you work with walls without components and the fill attributes of the wall are set to "None"?

Nope…never.

[ParkerJames]

4 minutes ago, Ross Harris said:

Walls are a bit janky in the joining side of things... Try rearranging a T junctionby dragging walls; you can't unless you disconnect a wall first, then have to use a tool to reconnect them if they misbehave when trying to drag the end to rejoin. In going back to revit, you can move any wall and any junction with out it either breaking or having to dismantle the junction, which I had totally forgotten about... And is just how you expect a modern BIM app to work.  Added bonus are helper dimensions that pop up (which you can turn into an actual dimension) when you select a wall so you can punch in a dimension without having to put a dimension in place. 

With all the 'wall reengineering'thats been done all we have to show for it is two iterations of wall closures....

The big problem is that new features or enhancements get 90% to being awesome... And are totally forgotten. Looking at you structural member..

There doesn't seem to be a big picture vision for usability and consistancy - development seems very siloed.

Ya…I am aware of that stuff. Try joining walls in 3D in 2025 and tell me what happens.  VW does not recognize the walls…essentially.

I am not being critical as a mission…I like VW and have been with it since 99.

I have no desire to change at this point. It’s a wonderful software and powerful in so many ways. Some of which, I am just recently digging into.

[MaWi]

16 minutes ago, Ross Harris said:

With all the 'wall reengineering'thats been done all we have to show for it is two iterations of wall closures....

Many users of other BIM authoring tools are still waiting for the correct wall component insertion in the lintel area of windows. We have this feature thanks to the (first part) of the wall reengineering.

 

17 minutes ago, Ross Harris said:

Walls are a bit janky in the joining side of things... Try rearranging a T junctionby dragging walls; you can't unless you disconnect a wall first, then have to use a tool to reconnect them if they misbehave when trying to drag the end to rejoin.

For me it works well....attached a short video. Which function do you miss?