Vectorworks abandoning perpetual licences

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

I see it different.

It seems to come from an individual, it is very biased, and

some things may be wrong.

But I still think it is very interesting.

(Meanwhile I read all 4 postulates and a bit around it)

Especially his latest, final Illustration in Thread V4, looking like a

Marionette or Blender Node Network, of all CAD App and BIM

history relationships from 80ie to current, looking similar to a

graph of the complex relationships of Linux Distribution development

give a great historical overview.

 

For me it was very new that it was even Autodesk that started

"open" BIM and IFC very early .... and other strangenesses ....

 

 

That was my take too.  Biased and unconventional presentation, but revealing and worthy of pondering nonetheless.

[M5d]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:23 AM, jeff prince said:

Here's some interesting reading, though I can not vouch for its veracity...

 

https://bigdataconstruction.com/lobbyist-wars-and-the-development-of-bim-part-2-open-bim-vs-closed-bim-revit-vs-archicad-and-europe-vs-the-rest-of-the-world/

 

Thanks @jeff prince, the critique in that series was a worthwhile and pretty relevant read. The scope is huge though, perhaps a little too broad for our BIM orientated brains? Still, I believe some of his investment fund observations are contextually relevant to Nemetschek’s own foibles and strategies as a holding company.

 

After making my way through most of the series, I’m thinking the conclusion of bias in this thread was based on Part 2 in isolation? If so, I’d urge anyone thinking this is unpaid advertising (for either camp), to keep going . . .

 

All 7 Parts are linked here: https://bigdataconstruction.com/history-of-bim/

 

The overarching motivation for the series isn’t particularly obvious in Part 2 and one of his primary hopes, being a truly “open” . . . BIM exchange format, one that behaves effectively and as efficiently as a single file format (like RVT), isn’t discussed until the subsequent Parts. Part 2 was more about building his argument for the fact that, in an open market, efficiency wins, and that in terms of market share percentages, base on the Zigurat institute’s observations of search data, it likely is winning!

 

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, M5d said:

All 7 Parts are linked here: https://bigdataconstruction.com/history-of-bim/

 

I really like that Graph 🙂

[M5d]

1 hour ago, zoomer said:

I really like that Graph 🙂

 

Yeah, that’s an extensive piece of work and a fantastic overview in itself. His details, dates and connections, almost certainly, will become the basis for further investigations and work on his subject, not to mention the general history he has captured there.

 

[elepp]

https://architosh.com/2022/10/the-revit-open-letter-through-the-lens-of-qwerty-nomics/

 

Here is another interesting read about our overall situation in the aec industry relating to subscription models and available trained human resources.

[DBrown]

Sadly, Vectorworks is mostly use for solo practitioners or very small firms, in the US is very rare to find large firms using Vectorworks, even in New Zealand, once Vectorworks was widely used, now most firms use Archicad, even long-time Vectorworks evangelist Jonathan Pickup is teaching Archicad and moving away from Vectorworks

 

[MaWi]

Hi DBrown

 

Are you from New Zealand yourself and have you done a study on this?  The sales figures (that I have personally seen) were excellent last year worldwide (incl. New Zealand). 

Currently there is no - but really NO reason to switch from Vectorworks to Archicad. The last 3-4 updates of Archicad were really not good (no fundamental innovations and tend to focus on closedBIM) and macOS customers have been waiting for an M1 version for over 1 year! There's little use in having a statue of Steve Jobs....

Do you really want to rely on a software that takes so long to adapt to a new technology? Graphisoft also recommends waiting 6 months with updating after a release of new macOS operating systems...such an attitude is absolutely outdated in my view.

Please don't forget that Archicad is still far away from multi-window technology, has no NURBS or subdivision modeling possibilities and also the technology for window and door openings in walls is outdated (no wall layering in the lintel area of the window!).

 

Marc

[Christiaan]

2 hours ago, MaWi said:

Graphisoft also recommends waiting 6 months with updating after a release of new macOS operating systems...such an attitude is absolutely outdated in my view.

Damn. Meanwhile I was running Vectorworks 2023 on macOS in July 2022 on my production machine, 6 months before either of them were officially released, and without any critical problems. 🤣

Edited November 4, 2022 by Christiaan

[Christiaan]

I'm a professional though. Don't try this at home.

[line-weight]

Well, I'm still running VW2021 because VW2022 and VW2023 have unfixed critical problems that are sufficiently disruptive to my workflow that there is no net benefit to me in upgrading to them.

 

Meanwhile I have until the end of December to pay the ransom money to stop the annual cost of the software I depend on doubling. Then I must pay the same amount again in March. Will I, by then, actually be able to use the software that I've been forced to pay for? Who knows.

[MaWi]

Hi line-weight

 

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

Well, I'm still running VW2021 because VW2022 and VW2023 have unfixed critical problems that are sufficiently disruptive to my workflow that there is no net benefit to me in upgrading to them.

Can you be more specific about the issues you mentioned? I work in quality management at Vectorworks Switzerland and have never had to advise a customer against Vectorworks 2022. Vectorworks 2023 has only been released for about 2 weeks. But I already have some customers who work with it productively in their daily business.

 

Best regards, Marc

[Jeff Prince]

53 minutes ago, MaWi said:

…have never had to advise a customer against Vectorworks 2022.

I held off on using it due to the many documented problems here on the forum.  I’m still in 2021 for stuff that matters, and cautiously test 2022 & 2023 periodically. I recommend the same to my clients and colleagues.

 

Years have gone by without some of the critical tools being fixed instead of revarnished with a thick coat of marketing spin.  It’s worrisome.  Combined with the licensing change and dramatic cost increase, I am hesitant to recommend it.

 

VWX 2022 reminds me of the AutoCAD R13 experience, good ideas but too many bugs.

[Jeff Prince]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

Meanwhile I have until the end of December to pay the ransom money to stop the annual cost of the software I depend on doubling. Then I must pay the same amount again in March. Will I, by then, actually be able to use the software that I've been forced to pay for? Who knows.

I feel like I have Stockholm syndrome, this is the first ransomware I have paid for, repeatedly.

[MaWi]

Hi jeff prince

 

1 hour ago, jeff prince said:

Years have gone by without some of the critical tools being fixed instead of revarnished with a thick coat of marketing spin.

Sorry, but this statement is simply not correct. 

I have been regularly reporting limitations to the manufacturer since April 2, 2011. Here is a small analysis:
5% of the limitations/bugs I reported were classified by me as critical
34& as high
37% as medium
24% as low

90% of all critical bugs I reported in the last 11 years were fixed and explicitly tested by Vectorworks Inc. I have not yet checked the remaining 10% with VW 2023, so some bugs will inevitably be fixed in 2023. Even for the "low" priority faults, the rate is still 60% over the last 11 years!

Let's take a look at the development over the last 3-4 years: 
- Completely new VGM installed (Vectorworks graphics module).
- Complete reingeering of the walls
- Completely new calculation and updating routine for sections.
- Project Sharing Server
-....
 

I really don't understand how you can make such a negative statement, but I guess your personal experience with limitations is the reason. I would be grateful if you could send me your list of critical bugs as a personal message. I will be glad to look at them....

Best regards, Marc

[Sam Jones]

20 minutes ago, MaWi said:

I would be grateful if you could send me your list of critical bugs as a personal message. I will be glad to look at them....

It would be very helpful if you would post them to the list.

 

[E|FA]

26 minutes ago, MaWi said:

send me your list

 

These are not all "critical bugs" but are long standing deficiencies and quality control problems that affect the productivity of long term experienced customers, who are requesting they be addressed before new features are rolled out.  Did we really need development resources put into a new VW23 home screen that arguably does nothing for productivity instead of addressing any of the items in the linked thread (or the items in @jeff prince's signature line)?  https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49017-my-wish-vw2021-to-have-no-new-features-please/

 

26 minutes ago, MaWi said:

I really don't understand how you can make such a negative statement

 

We can make them because we have frustrations with the software, and a long term perspective.  You might notice that many of the participants of this thread are experienced VW customers who are very active in supporting other users throughout the forum.  We have a vested interest in voicing criticism in an attempt to get VW management to understand their customers' long term needs, and focus on actual improvements rather than marketing new features that are not ready for primetime.

Edited November 4, 2022 by E|FA

[MaWi]

7 minutes ago, Sam Jones said:

It would be very helpful if you would post them to the list.

is also good, but I do not how long the list will be ;-)

In the last years my reports were always read carefully by the developers. In case of ambiguities they asked and always communicated clearly if I misunderstood something.

[MaWi]

10 minutes ago, E|FA said:

Did we really need development resources put into a new VW23 home screen that arguably does nothing for productivity

Have you ever measured how much time is lost when you have to find out from the name of the last opened files which file you want to open again? this function alone saves me a lot of time. I have received the same feedback from customers. The home screen is really appreciated and used!

 

15 minutes ago, E|FA said:

and focus on actual improvements rather than marketing new features that are not ready for primetime.

What improvements in the 2023 version would you have left out?

[E|FA]

I don't know about Windows, but on Mac: File->Open Recent->last 20 files.  I have the home screen disabled.  It seems like anything I click opens a browser window to a page I already have bookmarked.

 

Per the linked thread, I would have left out ALL of the new 2023 features to get significant improvements and bug fixes in already existing features.  For instance, I don't use Materials because it is not a fully functioning feature that can be applied to all building elements.  

 

AND I like what I'm seeing in the new features (e.g. new Benchmark Elevation).  I understand that there is a business reason to offer new features, and that it also offers a real benefit to users.  It's just that I would appreciate it if VW would prioritize using available development resources (including those derived from the new subscription model) to clean up existing features, without racing to release new features every cycle.  I think this is in the long term interest of both VW and the users.

 

I'm not trying to argue about VW.  I know its benefits and I love working with it.  I started with MiniCad and don't see myself ever switching to another program.  That doesn't mean I can't provide productive criticism.

 

[Jeff Prince]

36 minutes ago, MaWi said:

Sorry, but this statement is simply not correct.

I’m sorry, but you are not an authority on which tools are critical to my workflows and why they are not functioning optimally.  I pay for this software with my own money and I’m not some random avatar on the internet, my criticism stands.

 

37 minutes ago, MaWi said:

I really don't understand how you can make such a negative statement, but I guess your personal experience with limitations is the reason.

 

When you are a working professional producing work for clients on this platform and the limitations or crashes that go without repair for years AND cost you time/money, you will begin to understand.  When you see the company reorganize the color palette, system icons, home pages, etc. it feels like salt in the wound.  The color palette restructure is insulting.

 

I have found it pointless to list problem or work with the “premium” tech support I used to pay for voluntarily, but am now ransomed into funding.  Better to just develop work arounds than to sink time into the black hole of tech support.  This forum and its valuable members (notably several VWX employees too)  are the only reliable ways to get things resolved.

 

This all may sound a bit harsh, but it is yet another canary in the coal mine for anyone paying attention at VWX.  If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t comment.

 

I like the software, it’s graphically beautiful, if you ignore the color palette “upgrade”.  It replaces separate modeling, drafting, and graphic layout workflows.  It has great promise to be better, as long as the people writing the code don’t forget about the people using it.

[E|FA]

47 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

When you see the company reorganize the color palette, system icons, home pages, etc. it feels like salt in the wound.  The color palette restructure is insulting.

What he said.

[Sam Jones]

I don't care about getting into the discussion of VW's engineering priorities, but the new color palette is kind of cool.  The different presentation choices and the selection and application choices are helpful.

[Christiaan]

1 hour ago, jeff prince said:

Better to just develop work arounds than to sink time into the black hole of tech support.

That's how I used to feel until I joined the beta programme. And now I get to see exactly what's happening with my bug reports. 

 

I wish there was a way for other users to participate in this process more transparently.

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, E|FA said:

For instance, I don't use Materials because it is not a fully functioning feature that can be applied to all building elements.  

 

I beg to differ on this point. I think Materials are a really powerful + beneficial addition to the software + for me personally, the fact you can't apply them to Doors or Windows for example makes no difference whatsoever. I think sometimes things (in these discussions) are presented as universally acknowledged failures of the software when they're not. I am very happy with VW2022 + have some projects running concurrently on VW2023 + have no issues there either so far. In fact some aspects are considerably better (i.e. instantaneous resource selection in Favorites) which makes it something of a pain when I return to the VW2022 projects... But we all have our different experiences of course.

[Jeff Prince]

14 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

That's how I used to feel until I joined the beta programme. And now I get to see exactly what's happening with my bug reports. 

 

I wish there was a way for other users to participate in this process more transparently.

 

I salute those who are able to invest time in the beta program to help make the software better for us all.