Notes Manager / General Notes / Callouts Suggestions

[_James]

I'm starting to use the Notes Manager more and more, building up a good database of standard notes. In doing so I've come up with the following that the Notes Manger could do better to make it more intuitive.

 

1. Notes Manager - Remember the last Database File used

Every time I go to edit a callout I need select the correct database every time. It's only two clicks, but two clicks across hundreds of callouts soon adds up.

 

2. Notes Manager - Make it easier to add notes to the database.

Currently, if there is a callout already typed that I want to add to the template I need to:

1. double click to open the "Edit Callout" window

2. click "add note to database"

3. select the database

4.select the section of the database.

*Importantly here there is no provision to add a new section to the database!* There really should be here, as otherwise you need to go back out and essentially start again

5. Press ok

6. Select database again.

7. Select section again.

8. Select note again.

9. Press ok.

 

I think that steps 6-9 could be eliminated. Once you have added the note to the database, when you return to the "edit callout" window, it should be referencing the note from the database.

 

3. Notes Manager - Have Databases as a Resource

This would make it much more intuitive to select/copy databases from the Resource Manager, where I would imagine most offices share office-wide resources. These would allow admins to easily keep the General Notes updated, and allows users to easily copy old project notes and adapt them to new ones.

 

4. [omitted]

 

5. General Notes - Add Multiple Notes

It should be possible to add multiple notes to the General Notes pane without having the "Add Note" dialog keep opening and closing.

This has also been asked for already here and on Request #2 here

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Christiaan
Item 4 regarding request to remove Note Descriptions omitted

[Peter W Flint]

@Boh just tested and you are correct, drawing templates will retain settings for the general notes tool.

[Boh]

@Peter W Flint Yes, when I set up my templates  I used the "Pick up sets defaults" setting in the Eyedropper tool. This allowed me to quickly set the preferred defaults for all my commonly used tools. This saves so much time when drafting. You just need to make sure you uncheck this setting when you are finished with it.

 

[line-weight]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:21 AM, Boh said:

@Peter W Flint Yes, when I set up my templates  I used the "Pick up sets defaults" setting in the Eyedropper tool. This allowed me to quickly set the preferred defaults for all my commonly used tools. This saves so much time when drafting. You just need to make sure you uncheck this setting when you are finished with it.

 

 

What exactly do you pick up from, and drop on to?

 

Do you have to find an object made by the relevant tool, pick up from here, and drop onto an object made by that tool in the new file? And do this for each tool individually?

 

 

[line-weight]

On 4/27/2023 at 8:36 PM, Boh said:

 That said a save settings function for the notes tool would be good and probably quite easy for vw to implement.

 

I'd much rather it be implemented in the form of letting the tool use styles, rather than adding yet another way to save and recall settings for something, that doesn't apply to other similar objects.

 

Additionally, "load settings" type functionality leaves already created objects frozen in time, rather than letting you update things in bulk and consistently. It's a really backwards way of doing things - we have the "styles" concept - it should be applied to all tools rigorously and with at least a vague sense of urgency. As it is, I'm looking forward to seeing it fully implemented some time around the 22nd or 23rd century AD.

Edited May 4, 2023 by line-weight

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

What exactly do you pick up from, and drop on to?

 

Do you have to find an object made by the relevant tool, pick up from here, and drop onto an object made by that tool in the new file? And do this for each tool individually?

 

 

 

It will transfer the settings used to create an object to the tool preferences of the tool used to create that object. So you can create an object + edit the settings for the object to get it exactly the way you want then use Pick Up Sets Defaults to make those settings the default for the tool used to create it. So if you do it in your template file it's a quick + accurate way of getting these kinds of tools set up the way you want them ahead of time. But I'm with you: tools which use styles are preferable.

[line-weight]

43 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

It will transfer the settings used to create an object to the tool preferences of the tool used to create that object. So you can create an object + edit the settings for the object to get it exactly the way you want then use Pick Up Sets Defaults to make those settings the default for the tool used to create it. So if you do it in your template file it's a quick + accurate way of getting these kinds of tools set up the way you want them ahead of time. But I'm with you: tools which use styles are preferable.

That's a slightly weird use of the eyedropper tool - I wonder how we're supposed to find that out.

 

And what are "sets"? Is "pick up sets defaults" a strange shortening of "pick up settings defaults" or something? Just to put an additional obstacle in the path of our understanding.

[Pat Stanford]

Sets is a verb.

 

Pick up makes (sets) the settings of the object you picked up to be the new defaults.

[Boh]

9 hours ago, line-weight said:

What exactly do you pick up from, and drop on to?

 

Do you have to find an object made by the relevant tool, pick up from here, and drop onto an object made by that tool in the new file? And do this for each tool individually?

I haven’t done this for a while but as I recall I just went through and made instances of all my commonly used tools for creating objects, adjusted the myriad options for all of them exact how I like, activated the eye dropper tool with the pick up set defaults setting checked and just clicked on each created object. This picks up the settings of the objects and applies them as defaults to the file. No need to drop the settings onto anything. The next time you use a tool the settings should be just how you like them. But only in that file. I don’t know if this works for really complex plug ins like terrain models or space objects but certainly for simpler things like framing members and call-outs, hopefully the general notes tool. I don’t know how you could use the pickup sets defaults to transfer defaults from one file to another. Prob just copy paste the object into a file then run the eye dropper to pick up its settings as default for that file.

[line-weight]

Please, please, please can some attention be given to the notes manager and database and how it works generally.

 

It's truly horrible to use at the moment; almost every step feels like it's designed to trip you up.

 

It's much, much too easy to unintentionally over-write an existing note for example.

 

It's much too easy to unintentionally create a new note whose "description" matches another note.

 

One thing that makes it even more of a nightmare, when you make a mistake, is that "undo" will undo changes in the drawing but not the database, so it's very easily to entirely lose a note that's supposed to be in the database. Even if you realise immediately after the notes interface has tricked you into screwing things up, your mistake can't be reversed by an "undo".

 

Nor can things be fixed by reverting to a backup copy of the drawing - because it will refer to the same database.

Edited November 16, 2023 by line-weight

[_James]

Seconded. It can be an incredibly powerful tool that saves a huge amount of time but is severely limited in its current form.

[Boh]

The notes manager was improved a few versions ago so it is actually possible to effectively update notes across a file using a notes database. That said, I agree with @line-weightthat it is a tricky tool to use. Not very intuitive. If feels like it needs to be upscaled and rethought so that can be effectivley and efficiently used across multiple diverse projects.

 

The actual notes database files are very small. It seems to me it would be better if each drawing file had it's own integrated notes resource, and accessed just like any other  resource in the resource manager.

[michaelk]

@Boh I actually enjoy begin able to have a database of notes that spans not only different files, but different versions of Vectorworks.  My notes database is probably only 500 notes, but I know people who have many many thousands of notes.  Having that database fork with every file would be really confusing.

 

A few years ago @The Hamma and I came up with a very cool way of making very large notes databases from an excel file and a script in VW for generating UUIDs.  I should dig that up and post it.  I've forgotten some of the details on how to create it, but I've been using that database for years!

[line-weight]

I can see why some people would want a notes database that spanned several projects but for me it would be much better for it to be a resource tied within a specific file.

 

It already feels a bit dangerous that I can quite easily alter a bunch of notes scattered throughout a file without realising it. The ability to mess up multiple projects in one go (and maybe only realise some time later) - yikes.

 

 

...and it's just quite recently I've realised that the "no undo" issue is rather a significant one.

 

There are other ways of making a big mess too, like making a duplicate file to fork off a design option whilst leaving the previous one intact in case you want to revert to it. You have to remember to make a copy of the notes database too, if you're going to change any of the notes in the drawing, or at least have a thought through strategy of what's going to happen.

Edited November 16, 2023 by line-weight

[Boh]

7 minutes ago, line-weight said:

It already feels a bit dangerous that I can quite easily alter a bunch of notes scattered throughout a file without realising it. The ability to mess up multiple projects in one go (and maybe only realise some time later) - yikes.

I've found that if I change a note in a notes database, I'll only be asked if I want to update the notes in the current open file to the linked revised database note. Other files with notes linked to the changed note will not change but just become unlinked.

[Christiaan]

@_James can you remove number 4 from your list? We use Note Descriptions as described here

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/99252-notes-manager-general-notes-callouts-suggestions/#comment-458702

 

[Christiaan]

I'd also like this behaviour when copying and pasting Callouts across layers:

 

[line-weight]

9 hours ago, Boh said:

I've found that if I change a note in a notes database, I'll only be asked if I want to update the notes in the current open file to the linked revised database note. Other files with notes linked to the changed note will not change but just become unlinked.

That could be a problem in itself though, if it's not what you wanted to happen. Actually sometimes this happens within a file, when I press the wrong button somewhere. Then you don't lose the text of those notes that become unlinked but you do lose the ability to make changes to all of them in one go ... And if you haven't realised what's happened you might think you've made an edit when it hasn't actually propagated to all instances.

[Boh]

Agreed. Lately I’ve only been making project/file specific notes databases for keynotes and using the project notes database to keep the keynotes uniform.

For standard call-outs I might initially draw the note from a master notes database but thereafter would tend to use a worksheet for global editing of standard call-outs.

[line-weight]

Here's an illustration of the multiple traps set for you when you just want to create a new note.

 

In my case, I very often create a new note by duplicating an existing one then editing it. In the example here, I've got 4 notes already and I just want to create "note 5".

 

[yes, I know everything below is basically user error - and technically the popups and so on warn me what's going to happen - but I'm talking about real humans using things in real life]

 

Trap no. 1: You change the text but don't press the "add note to database" button:

 

Trap 2: You remember to press "add note to database" but forget to change the "note description" to something different.

 

Trap 3: You remember to press "add to database" and you remember to change the "note description" but you forget to choose the right note in the upper pane when you come back to the main dialogue:

 

Finally here's what happens if you make the error in trap no. 3, return to your drawing and immediately realise you've messed up, and try to do an "undo":

 

 

The problem is not just that these errors are very easy to make (especially no. 3) but that once you've made them, and/or try and rectify things, it all gets incredibly confusing very quickly.

 

In my last example above, showing what happens after an undo, it's already a bit confusing what's happened, with my 5 numbered notes with all instances visible in one place. But once you've got notes all over a drawing, with more complex text, maybe some where the first part of the text is the same or similar, if you're not very careful it all spirals into a catastrophe and potentially computer keyboards being thrown out the window.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by line-weight

[_James]

On 11/17/2023 at 6:19 AM, Christiaan said:

@_James can you remove number 4 from your list? We use Note Descriptions as described here

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/99252-notes-manager-general-notes-callouts-suggestions/#comment-458702

 

I can't seem to edit the post i'm afraid otherwise I would! Am I doing something wrong?

[_James]

On 11/16/2023 at 10:40 PM, line-weight said:

I can see why some people would want a notes database that spanned several projects but for me it would be much better for it to be a resource tied within a specific file.

Definitely. 

 

For us I would see it it working like any other resource that we share office-wide through the resource manager. The 'standard' set is kept for all to use and then it can be modified for a specific project. Just like we keep symbols of dining tables in standard sizes but if a client has a specific one in mind we'll alter it to match. The key point being that if we edit the symbol in one file it doesn't alter every dining table on every project!

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, _James said:

I can't seem to edit the post i'm afraid otherwise I would! Am I doing something wrong?

 

I think there is a quite short time limit on when you can edit a post now... (for non-moderators)

[_James]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:52 PM, line-weight said:

Here's an illustration of the multiple traps set for you when you just want to create a new note.

 

In my case, I very often create a new note by duplicating an existing one then editing it. In the example here, I've got 4 notes already and I just want to create "note 5".

 

[yes, I know everything below is basically user error - and technically the popups and so on warn me what's going to happen - but I'm talking about real humans using things in real life]

 

Trap no. 1: You change the text but don't press the "add note to database" button:

 

Screen Recording 2023-11-17 at 12.30.11.mov 1.76 MB · 0 downloads

 

Trap 2: You remember to press "add note to database" but forget to change the "note description" to something different.

 

Screen Recording 2023-11-17 at 12.31.24.mov 2.03 MB · 0 downloads

 

Trap 3: You remember to press "add to database" and you remember to change the "note description" but you forget to choose the right note in the upper pane when you come back to the main dialogue:

 

Screen Recording 2023-11-17 at 12.32.38.mov 2.78 MB · 0 downloads

 

Finally here's what happens if you make the error in trap no. 3, return to your drawing and immediately realise you've messed up, and try to do an "undo":

 

Screen Recording 2023-11-17 at 12.34.53.mov 3.61 MB · 0 downloads

 

 

The problem is not just that these errors are very easy to make (especially no. 3) but that once you've made them, and/or try and rectify things, it all gets incredibly confusing very quickly.

 

In my last example above, showing what happens after an undo, it's already a bit confusing what's happened, with my 5 numbered notes with all instances visible in one place. But once you've got notes all over a drawing, with more complex text, maybe some where the first part of the text is the same or similar, if you're not very careful it all spirals into a catastrophe and potentially computer keyboards being thrown out the window.

 

 

really good illustration of many the issues

[Christiaan]

22 minutes ago, _James said:

I can't seem to edit the post i'm afraid otherwise I would! Am I doing something wrong?

 

You don't have this option?

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, Christiaan said:

 

You don't have this option?

 

It's only available for a short period (a few hours? a day?) then is automatically removed. Has been mentioned elsewhere