Jump to content

Release 12.0.1


BandA

Recommended Posts

I made a new topic out of this so that it wouldn't be just another post on a topic that is already too long.

Robert, I talked to Nathan (?) today at tech support and he replicated the window border problem with a new vectorworks file on the updated/patch version of Vectorworks (12.0.1) with his own computer. He was as baffled as I was considering a few people assured us that this bug was fixed in 12.0.1.

Here's what we did so you can replicate the problem:

-create a new document

-create a wall (any wall) that has a texture on the outside (preferably a texture that has a vertical or horizontal element to it so it will be more apparent when a border is created and the texture mapping is rotated 90 degrees)

-now create a window in that wall, without adding trim. view the window/wall from the outside of the wall in an any isometric view.

-render the window. no border, correct?

-now add trim. interior, exterior, or both. doesn't matter. you get the best effect with just interior trim.

-now render the window. see any border?

-now assuming you see the border (i've gotten it every time i've tried to make a window as such), that border is exactly the width of the jamb. try setting the jamb width to 0. viola! the border vanishes. if you need evidence of this, go to a top view (not top plan) and measure the distance from the outside of the widest trim to the outside of the border created. exactly the width of the jamb.

The reason I'm pointing this out to you is because I'm hoping that if you see it with your own eyes, in a drawing you've created yourself, it'll make you a believer.

I know that a bunch of work was put into 12.0.1, but my problem with it is that none of the changes made seem all that relevant to the main issues brought up in this forum by Vectorworks users. I understand that no product will be a perfect gem, and while I am really not overjoyed at being part of the beta testing for 12, I understand that we, the users, are a critical point of feedback for the program. That being said, I don't mind providing a little bit of feedback for Vectorworks, especially with fairly new version (12) out. My problem comes when it appears that the users are not a critical point of feedback, and the issues brought up in this forum go largely ignored in maintenance releases. Honestly, looking through the updates made in this release, I don't see any that stand out as recurrent Wish-List items, or even major bug fixes. Don't me wrong, I like the idea of being able to render a Section VP in perspective as much as the next guy, and yes, I think it's handy to be able to add trim to a window from the Object Info Palette, but I'd much rather be able to make a door or window that I know will appear and act properly 100 times out of 100. I know Nemetschek believed they fixed the window bug in this release, or else they wouldn't have claimed they had, but my guess is that they spent a grossly inadequate amount of time testing whether or not they had the problem licked and that is terribly inacceptable.

For what it's worth, my opinion is this: I believe that fundamental areas of the program (windows, doors, etc - see forum for others) must be sound from the get-go, period, the end. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Test the living hell out of the program to make sure the fundamentals work, and when you're done, test it all over again. Test it on a lunar eclipse. Test it on a leap year. Test it while your suspended from the ceiling by wires and wearing green polka dotted pants and a clown nose. Test it while looking at it cross-eyed. Test it on a Sunday. Test it on a Tuesday. Test it while eating green eggs and ham. The basics of the program are your bread and butter. Without them, you ain't got much of a sandwich.

Since this is not the case, Nemetschek must address these bugs, first and foremost, and get them out as patches as fast as they can. Making users wait months for a maintenance release that doesn't even solve the major problems is inexplicably frustrating. I am currently wondering whether I'll have to wait another four months to see if the Window and Door problem will be fixed. I don't look forward to the answer.

If users like myself can pick up bugs in the program minutes after installing the upgrades, maybe internal testing isn't quite up to snuff. I personally feel a little let down because I have devoted a good deal of my free time to diligent feedback on the techboard and patient waiting, and I have seen very little, if any returns, for my effort. I know I can speak for many users when I say that the least gratifying solution to finding a true (big!) bug in the program is to post the problem on the website, hope it is read, and then wait months to see whether or not it is included in the next release. My first response is to throw the computer out the window, my second is to call up Vectorworks and tell them how highly I think of them. I've done Nemetschek the courtesy of skipping number two. More sensibly, I have resorted to posting the problem on the techboard (is this not the place for it?). I sincerely hope Nemetschek will return the courtesy in the future by working a little harder to use what we give them.

I apologize for the long post, and if you've gotten this far, thanks for listening. Unfortunately, my best guess is that in the overall scope of things, this post will make very little difference in the way things are handled with future releases of Vectorworks. Being a dedicated user, I sincerely hope I am mistaken.

Thanks again for listening.

Link to comment
  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

BandA, I see a texture misalignment on the wall surrounding the window. I don't see a "border" similar to the one you sent in your bugfile.

In 12.0.0, there were problems with window and door surrounds in non-Imperial unit systems, and these bugs were both what were described in earlier posts and were fixed. Since these bugs created problems in hidden line drawings, they received top priority. And as far as I know, they have been fixed, totally.

I am seeing some misalignments of textures in the procedure you prescribe, but these were -not- the bugs that were described earlier and reported. And these are not the "border" bugs that I saw in your bugfile. So I for one am not yet fully sure what the bug is. And I am expending effort to make sure I understand what it is.

For what it's worth, this is not about belief. And it's not about sermons, either. The techboard, while not an inappropriate place for issues such as this, is nowhere near as good as sending them to bugsubmit@nemetschek.net . This is where bugs should be posted. You can attach bug files to the emails you send to that address.

Link to comment

Hold the civil war, you are both correct. There is a problem and a workaround for it. Specify as small a value as you can for the jam thickness. To small a value and your sash and glazing will disappear when rendered. I used .1" which minimized the effect sufficiently, however your plan view has very thin jams. I would set the jams to their normal thickness and when your ready to start final renderings change one window and use the eyedropper tool to quickly set this attribute in the others.

VW 12.0.1 Designer-Win XP

Link to comment

Please don't misinterpret what I was trying to accomplish here. I am not trying to do battle with anyone. Nothing ever gets accomplished that way, and more often then not, things move backward instead of forward. This is counterproductive and was not my intent at all. My point is that I personally think 12.0.1 is a bit of a let down. Yes, this is my personal opinion. I could keep this to myself, or, I can give Nemetschek some feedback. I choose the latter. If the post above appears edgy, it is because it is. I spent all of Friday trying to help our firm come to grips with the release, and yes, it was long day. Some things work well on the release, I agree. Others leave a little to be desired. Unfortunately the windows and doors don't work well in my opinion and they are essential for us. That is why I am posting here and that is why I contact NNA. My ultimate motive is to help Vectorworks move forward. Don't mistake that.

On to specifics: I think the window pio is still buggy. The rectangle of misaligned textures around windows is a problem because we use texture rendering in most of our drawings. Call it a border or call it errant texture, I think they one in the same. The jamb trick works on new drawings, but have you tried it on an older (12.0.0) drawing? It causes the glazing to render opaque, at least in our drawings. I have updated all of my plug in objects, my video driver, and yes, it still happens. I also cannot get trim to render around a door in an older file as well. The trim appears in a top/plan view, and I believe in an isometric view in wireframe as well, but it will not render correctly (it just disappears). Yes, I will be submitting a bugfile, as I have done recently with my findings, but that is not the point of this topic.

Bugs aside, where does Nemetschek get its ideas for the changes it makes to Vectorworks? I'm not asking rhetorically, I would genuinely like to know. My impression is that this forum was used quite a bit. 7000 users all giving feedback about Vectorworks? Seems like a decent deal for NNA. Talking to people at NNA, however, it didn't seem like this was entirely the case. My low opinion of 12.0.1 stemmed from the fact that I personally have spent quite a bit of energy to provide feedback on the forum (the majority of which were not bugs, but thoughts on how the program might be improved. Check my previous posts if you'd like), and I felt Nemetschek didn't do much to return the efforts I, and many other users put forth. If I'm simply barking up the wrong tree, cool, where do I go about giving feedback that will get noticed? And no, I am not just talking about bugs here. A lot of my thoughts are ideas that I hope will make Vectorworks a stronger CAD platform. If calling NNA is the best approach, sounds good to me. Do you have a toll-free number? Because as much as I hate to admit it, the average user does not see a huge, or at least equal return on most of the time spent providing feedback (this goes with any program). The feedback first helps Nemetschek, and, just my opinion, giving this feedback should not cost the user.

Like I said earlier, my intention was not to wage war, or anger people with my earlier post. That doesn't mean, however, I did not intend not to rattle a few cages. There's only so much you can do with cute ribbons and teddy bears if you feel that your voice isn't being heard and you are unhappy about it. In this case, my voice, like many others, is expressed in the discussions on the techboard. Based on 12.0.1, my opinion is that my feedback, like that of others, was either not heard, or it was not implemented much in the development of 12.0.1. If NNA would like the feedback of users like myself, good, I would love to provide it. I think I can help. Let me know where the best place to do it would be and I will happily oblige. If it would prefer not to have my feedback, that's O.K. as well. Providing feedback takes time, energy, and occasionally restraint, and if it's not accomplishing what I hope it will, at least in part, I can personally think of 6 things I'd rather be doing with my Saturday morning. If you would like my feedback, which I hope you would, it works a hell of a lot better when it's reciprocal. I can't speak for others, but I personally will continue to provide feedback and support Vectorworks if it appears that Nemetschek is actually using the feedback we provide. My general impression with 12.0.1 is that this was not entirely the case. If I am wrong, which I hope I am, I hope Nemetschek can demonstrate that. This is a case where actions speak much louder than words.

Once again, no offense or sermon was intended. Sometimes length is unavoidable. Thank you again for listening.

Link to comment

The fact you are directly communicating in this thread with a Vice President of the company is a testament to how well NNA is in touch with its users, IMHO.

If you want your feedback/possible issues to be reviewed by NNA technical staff, the best way is to use the bugsubmit@nemetschek.net address as Robert mentioned.

Perhaps you should join the VW User list as another venue to comment on the program?

http://lists.nemetschek.net/archives/vectorworks-l.html

Link to comment

Don't get me wrong. I think the fact that Robert's moderator of this forum is rad (or does it mean he has little else to do?). I'm just looking for the best place to put my feedback in the future. I will always resort to the techboard for questions and insight on VW without hesitation. It's great in that respect. I was just bummed after 12.0.1 came out because it seemed a bit buggier than a maintenance release should be, not to mention the fact that it felt like big items on the wish list (and threads on common problems) appeared to be largely ignored in this release. But once again, I could be wrong.

If no one else was bummed with this release, you can completely ignore my posts. I'm probably missing something.

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

The windows PIO in VW 12.0.1 is flawed (and possibly the door PIO as well). I do not think that it is productive for VW users to suck on eggs apologizing for their complaints. I bought VW 12 which is TOTALLY USELESS because of this bug. I am continuing to "work" with VW 11.5, but my confidence in upgrading in the future has been unalterably flawed.

Link to comment

BandA:

Not just the frustration, but the loss of time and revenue from having to beta test without consent and then seemingly receiving an upgrade that in turn had to be upgraded because it was deffective.

To add insult to injury, the feeling I've gotten lately is that most of the bugs were "known", as so many posts assert in this very forum.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...