advanced roof modeling

[digitalcarbon]

while the new roof tool has some good features, the fact is that detailed roof eave and gable returns are not possable. what if we approched it by modeling one corner very well, make it a symbol, and then copy it around. this would mean that there would need to be a way to hide the lines that would show up.

any comments

[MKingsley]

I'm always wishing the roof commands could be more precise in the eaves and gable ends as well. Granted, I'm a relative novice with VW, been with it sporadically since v8, but I've never been happy using the "Create Roof" commandl, even in v12. If I have to change anything, or try shortening one side of a gable, forget it, go back to "Roof Faces".

I like your idea, the way I see it anyway, and as long as you're ready for the final product it would work fine. You could "white-out" the offending lines with the pen color.

How do other people handle the traditional stick built roofs where the insulated part of the roof is a full 2x12 rafter which is then ripped down to 5 or 6 inches at the eaves? Same at the gable ends where the roof is not a full 12" deep? (The new rake option in the soffit accessories doesn't seem to work) Separate roof faces? The sections show up inaccurately otherwise. All we need is one more "thickness" parameter for the eaves in the Create Roof dialog and I may force myself to use it somehow. And why not have some these options in the Roof Face command as well. I'm sure there are still a lot of us out there still building funky but chic roofs that rely on the Roof Face.

[MKingsley]

I'm always wishing the roof commands could be more precise in the eaves and gable ends as well. Granted, I'm a relative novice with VW, been with it sporadically since v8, but I've never been happy using the "Create Roof" command, even in v12. If I have to change anything, or try shortening one side of a gable, forget it, go back to "Roof Faces".

I like your idea, the way I see it anyway, and as long as you're ready for the final product it would work fine. You could "white-out" the offending lines with the pen color.

How do other people handle the traditional stick built roofs where the insulated part of the roof is a full 2x12 rafter which is then ripped down to 5 or 6 inches at the eaves? Same at the gable ends where the roof is not a full 12" deep? (The new rake option in the soffit accessories doesn't seem to work) Separate roof faces? The sections show up inaccurately otherwise. All we need is one more "thickness" parameter for the eaves in the Create Roof dialog and I may force myself to use it somehow. And why not have some these options in the Roof Face command as well. I'm sure there are still a lot of us out there still building funky but chic roofs that rely on the Roof Face.

[CipesDesign]

"How do other people handle the traditional stick built roofs where the insulated part of the roof is a full 2x12 rafter which is then ripped down to 5 or 6 inches at the eaves? "

I am grappling with that exact problem as we speak. The method of using "dual" roof faces works, but becomes really messy when an adjustment needs to be made. Too many steps. Another way that works is to draw one the cut rafters in section, and then extrude it to clover the entire roof area. Then use another extrude for the sheathing. Also messy if you need to make changes, but it is less steps, in in a way more straight forward.

[islandmon]

From the beginning design to the final construction a successful roof equals a successful project. Typical Roof Design creates each 3D component >frame>plywood>tile

[Travis]

I'd be very surprised if VW auto-created that roof for Armstrong. (Nice work, by the way) I've learned to break the roof into somewhat logical sections, usually by polygon, and then use the Create Roof command to get reasonably close.

A complicated roof requires a great deal of human mental energy. I'm grateful for a couple years' experience building cut-up, multi-level roofs back in my university days. Whenever I'm up against a significant challenge, I think through how it would be built and then try to model it accordingly.

To Mechanix' original question: I've often created eave-to-rake returns just as you describe. If you have Renderworks, and apply the same texture to to all components, it will blend together nicely.

You could also create the extrudes necessary to model the return and rather than using it as a symbol, place them correctly and then add solids (with the roof face). You might need to edit out a few stray points to make sure no stray lines are created in various perspectives. This would eliminate the line issue you mention. . .but it makes editing much more difficult.

Good luck,

[digitalcarbon]

thanks for all your comments.

the reason i mentioned modeling a "corner of the roof" idea was because i do not really see a roof dialog box doing everything we might think up.

if there was a way to model such corner roof fussiness and then know that one could still use the model in 2d paper drawings this would be great.

tools like the new "section view" have a great value since it allows you to extract valuable information and present it in 2d.

the roof above, while impressive, does not show it's paper counterpart. it does not address the issues, eave trim, rake trim, rake returns etc. modeled in 3d and then used for 2d prints.

its basically a really good hip roof which VW already does a fair job on.

(purpose was to make a point and not to offend)

also, how do we control the line weights of a 3d model in 2d? it would be great to be able to select each line in hidden line render mode and change the weight for that line in that view or turn it off.

[islandmon]

To clarify: I build the roof with VW .. there's absolutely no faking of it. This the only way I know how to operate. The 'round' gutters are actually segmented and easily fabricated. All the hardware is included, too. The Tile Ridge Caps are NURBS.

To avoid 'island' confusion the contractor is even provided with all the plywood placements & cuts.

[digitalcarbon]

islandmon, thanks for the information. are the plywood patterns the actual 3d model? if you change the 3d roof do the images above change? like a hot section. : )

[Travis]

MK & Armstrong,

We have a copper fabricator here in town who has developed a little "stretcher" device which he hauls to the jobsite. Using a bit heavier copper than you might normally spec, he stretches flat and concave (5" & 6" half-round copper gutters are his specialty) copper profiles around a specified radius. When he's through, there's a small amount wrinkling along the inside radius and the copper has been stretched thinner along the outside radius, but there's no segmentation. Rather, it's almost art. . .at least for those of us that notice.

I've been encouraging him to let me draw up a set of plans for his machine that he could use to either file for a patent or at least get someone to mfg them for sale.

[Robert Anderson]

MJW, you say

quote:

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...everytime we try to create roofs 'roof too complicated' comes up. In fact V11.5 created more complicated roofs than V12...

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Can you email me a roof that works in VW11 but fails in VW12? We haven't seen any decrease in reliability but are interested to have good bugfiles if this is the case.

[MKingsley]

So just how are they fabricating curved gutters these days?

[michael john williams]

This looks like a complicated roof and everytime we try to create roofs 'roof too complicated' comes up. Infact V11.5 created more complicated roofs than V12 and I had hoped that V12 would be an improvement, especially after watching the roof movie. The roof we are trying to create has different eaves levels and so maybe it struggles with that. It looks so simple in the movie with various push / pull tags.

[Damon Design]

Islandmon impressive work. Does the (a) tile texture create the cap on the ridge line now, or did you have to create that manually? I haven't noticed that before.

[islandmon]

Travis, almost art is what we are looking for ... curved copper would be the ideal solution. Please send me a private message. Maybe doing a signature home on the island of St.John would be beneficial and help to get your man motivated to take the next step.

Mechanix, each component part is a symbol including all the plywood cuts. Therefore, the entire design is only theoretically 'scalable' due to the fact that plywd & tile are a fixed dimension and cannot be scaled but only multiplied . The Rafters are PIO.

The basic reason for the attention to design detail with minimal waste is that the cost of residential construction on the island of St. John is over $250/sf. Adding just 4ft to a 20ft timber doubles the cost of it. A landed sheet of ply is over $50 ... $500/cy of pump-crete !

Additionally... we are in max. Hurricane & Seismic Zone.

[islandmon]

This morning I created a little Tutorial File showing the use of 3D loci to set-up various Roof Designs. Right Click to download 170kb zip :

2d & 3d Roof Set-up Tutorial v11

[BandA]

what file format is your tutorial? it's coming up with no extension.

[payne]

Robert,

Following on from MJW's concern about the create roof problem - I have just checked the particular roof he mentioned and although we are still experiencing problems getting it right, it turns out that it's actually no worse than the 11.5 version - false alarm.

[islandmon]

The Roofing Tutorial is VW 11.5.1. Decompress then open the file from VW app. or add ext. to the name. TYPE DO11, Creator CDP3

[islandmon]

For those having trouble 'seeing' the file type:

Added " .mcd" extension to filename & re-linked it here...

[Jonathan Pickup]

my Architect tutorial has several roof exercises designed to teach you how to make a complex roof with VectorWorks, using the standard VectorWorks roof, what to do when this roof doesn?t go far enough, how to use roof faces and how to bring it all together in a roof exercise where you create a complex roof and get all the parts to line up.

https://plus36.safe-order.net/archoncad/manuals/manuals.php

[islandmon]

BandA...excellent questions... and basically the same ones I asked myself as I developed the simplest possible system for creating any roof design necessary.

1) First, the 3d Loci are set to the 2d Grid Plan, as shown

2) Then the Peaks are determined by arccos ( 1/cos) of the pitch angle based on the Rafter Plan Length. This is the Z elev.

3) Then after all the 3d loci are set, goto 3d poly Tool and place the polygons and render to check the faces, etc. Any problems with show here...first. Compromises are needed for the wall plate height and secondary ridges, etc. A fixed plate height determines everything else.

4) Now goto the Roof Procedure and place one or more Gable or Hip Roofs using the 3dLoci and declare the structurral members.

5) Make custom Rafters & Hips as req. always using your 3dPoly layout as a check for accuracy.

6) Ditto for the Plywood surfaces and roof decks.

It makes no sense to get all wrapped in a roof design procedure if the fundamental Trig-math is not utilized from the get-go.

After all this is what the Create Roof Procedure is based on.

[BandA]

sounds good. it's working the way i hoped it would. one thing.. i'm really not getting the eave profile i wanted with any of the automated roof framers or the rafter detail pio either. do you resort to making the rafters from extruded polygons?

[BandA]

EJ,

i'm just trying to get an idea of what steps you take in going from 3d loci to your finished roof. how do you set up your 3d loci? do you draw the roof plan in plan view, place the loci, then loft the appropriate loci? if so, do you bust out math to calculate what goes where, or do you use a drawing method? then, how do you take your 3d loci to make a roof object or roof faces (i'm assuming you used these roof objects b/c as far as i know, that's the only way to use the rafter pio)? do the rafters you create have any unique eave detail, or do they just have a bird's mouth cut out of them so then can rest on the plate?

thanks.

[islandmon]

One other neat trick... after creating the first set of 3d Loci & 3dPoly faces ... duplicate the group and move it up or down the distance of the chord of the either rather, hip or ridge. This sets the limit elevations for the roof components.

It's necessary to model special rafters, hips & ridges using extruded polygons, but this can be done easily after the entire roof is built using 'generic' framing symbols for the parts and then either replacing or modifying them.