Elevations in VW 12

[BandA]

I was trying to get an idea of how people created their elevations in VW 12 when drawing in 3D. Massing the building seems to be fairly straight forward, but I was looking for the best way to apply some form of line rendering to the building without using the Renderworks textures. Do most people use the annotation mode to add detail by hand? Does this get a little tedious if a building changes a bunch? Does anyone use the Artisic Renderworks plug-in (Line and shadow is the one I believe I have in mind) for their elevations? Any other suggestions that I have omitted?

I have read through most of the other posts that relate to this, but i wanted to get a few opinions now that 12 has been out there a little longer.

Thanks.

[islandmon]

Just build the structure with Hybrid Symbols and then let VW sort it all out. Quick efficient and powerful ; )

[CipesDesign]

Band A (with great respect for EJ) I will add a little more info. I get very good results with the following basic technique: Create an accurate model of the building using layers (slightly oversimplified but I use one layer for each level of the building) then create a layer link to express the entire building, and the site if you wish. Set your elevation view(s) of the model, set a sun position, render to check results. Wne you have the view you want create a viewport(VP) of it. Make this VP render in OpenGL or in FQRW, then duplicate it in place (remember that a VP is just another type of object!), directly over the top of the original VP, but change the duplicate to "hidden line" rendering. Then, by adjusting the line weight scale you can fatten the lines, and by going into the render settings you can choose to "sketch" the hidden line results. Experiment a bit, and have fun!

[Ramon PG]

I second Peter's technique (with great respect for EJ, too).

Remember to experiment with added Viewport lighting in order not to have pitch black shadows that may obscure detail in the elevations.

Using an analogous technique I also like to add isometric views, which you can further tilt up or down keeping verticals parallel with the Flyover Tool .

[ 12-16-2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Ramon PG ]

[Travis]

I think there's far too much respect going on around here!!

Merry Christmas to all. . .

[BandA]

So say I wanted to use clapboard siding on the walls and wood shingles on the roof. Do you use renderworks to create these textures? Or do you actually build the textures as 3d shapes on the given surfaces (i'm sure that would be nice when it came time to do building sections, and it'd look good when it came time to do elevations, but i assume it would take a while)? The only hesitation I have with using a renderworks texture is that if it does plot well, I'm pretty sure it won't blueprint well. We still use blueprints to make most of our copies for clients and I'm afraid a rendered texture will come out as one big blob, or at least a bit too dark to be readable. What have been your experiences? Call me old fashioned, but I like the look of a nicely rendered line drawing of a house with appropriate use of different line thicknesses.

Thanks for your responses btw. They are greatly appreciated.

[CipesDesign]

YES! I use textures for siding and roof. For elevations it is certainly important to use a lighter colored texture because, as you say, a dark one will print as a big black blob. So for instance, try the "shingles light gray" or "white" for the roof and any of the white of light gray sidings for your walls. It is also important to experiment with the ambient light (I normally turn it up to between 50 -75%) in order for things to print well. The absolutely cool thing is that if you set a sun position and render the first VP in FQRW you will get perfect, life-like shadows which help to show depth, etc. and the siding and roofing will show, but not as distinct lines. More like various shades of gray, which I happen to prefer. And the second VP will give you all of the hard-line definition you're looking for. Let us know how it works out for you ;-)

[CipesDesign]

Oh, one additional trick/tip you might find useful: I almost always want to see the corner trim (and belly bands, gable end bands, etc) and of course VW's can't (yet) create these for us automatically. What I do is create a class called "trim" and then use simple extruded shapes (classed as "trim" so that they can be invisible in plan views, etc.) to actually create it. My theory, both for 2d and 3d drawings: more accurate + more detail = more easily read (by clients and builders).

[BandA]

Ahh.. (smiling). I didn't consider Renderworks textures to be something that could print out decently. Funny, but it never really dawned on me that using a lighter colored texture may accomplish what I was after. I will try..

I was already thinking of something to do with for the trim, etc, that was very close to what you mentioned. I'll have to see how it all comes together.

I'll let you know how it works out.

[BandA]

One thing that I'm finding with the hidden line rendering is that i'm getting a some extraneous lines where I don't want them to be and I'm not getting lines in a few places I would like to have them. For instance, my windows have an extra box around them in elevation view. It's not a weird trim size, lintel, or anything else. It doesn't show up in a renderworks rendering, nor does it show up in the floor plans or wall sections. just in the hidden line rendering and wireframe. I'm stumped. I also seem to be getting lines that I originally thought were tied to some wall behind the visible wall, but now I'm not sure.

As for the lines that I would like to be there.. It seems like crashing two 3d shapes into each other doesn't create a 'junction' line in the hidden line rendering like I hoped it would. In order to do that, I need to use the 'add/substract solids' command which makes the roofs pretty complicated. Any way I can make that line appear without add/subtract solid command? How 'messy' do you leave the roofs underneath the visible surface ?

Sorry, but one final question: do you render your window panes opaque in the elevation viewport so you don't see through them?

Sorry for the long post. More practice with the 3D features of VW seems to just generate more questions.

I'll get a chance to see how things look when plotted tomorrow at the office.

[CipesDesign]

As for your first issue, there is known bug (which as I understand it will be fixed for the 12.0.1 release) which creates extra 3d loci points which cut the wall plane. The most common result of this is that there appear to be huge borders around the window trim. The workaround for this (until they get it fixed) is to use windows with no trim. I've had quite the time adding all my exterior trim back using extrudes, etc., and I'll be really happy to be able to just use windows with trim again soon :-)

As for your second issue, yes, you need to model your roof pretty accurately in order to get an accurate rendering. If you'll look back to a couple of posts ago (above) you'll note that I said: "My theory, both for 2d and 3d drawings: more accurate + more detail = more easily read (by clients and builders)." I also should have added that the more accurate your model, the less fussing you'll need to do to make it look right (because it will already *be* right!). So here's the thing, all you need to do is remember back when you were doing this all with a paper and pencil. Remeber how a roof looks in plan view? Just draw it that way (using the exact technique you already describe: adding and clipping of surfaces) and you will get accurate HL results. Hope that helps!

[BandA]

That's good to hear. I went through every option in the window prefs and nothing made it go away (except, I found, removing the trim like you said). When did they say 12.0.1 would be coming out..?

I figured that modeling the roofs as accurately as possible was probably best, I guess I was just hoping you'd say something else. 'Oh yea, don't worry about that..' Ha!

Thanks again for your help.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

Thanks so much for the tips (especially the duplicate VP)--they've opened up a lot of possibilities for me!

I've been stuck in the "convert to line" mentality for some time now (using model views in hidden line render, then cleaning, and cleaning, and cleaning up lines, adding profiles, hatches etc). Better than hand drafting, but time to move on.

One thing is keeping me from achieving desired results: the line wts of elements in plan vs. other views. Mostly walls, but others too. Unless I'm doing a brick veneer or ICF wall, I tend to like my walls to show up in plan as a simple pair heavy lines (18 mils, no cavities)with a variety of progressivly lighter lines representing doors, window sashes, glazing in section, sills, door swings etc (roughly in that order). Plans look great, but when viewing any model view (other than open GL, renderworks, shaded poly/no lines) these line wts just don't work.

Peter, your tip regarding the advanced properties dialog in VP to alter line wts helps, but doesn't allow selective mods to individual lines (of course!). I have a feeling some would suggest delving deeper into the hybrid qualities of objects. If that's the solution, I'm ready to go for it. Maybe the wall line wt. example would be an easy one for somebody to explain.

Also, heavy profiling of objects (and lightening of lines as they recede) is ingrained in my sense of "rightness" of architectural graphics (I guess I'm old enough to to remember --fondly-- compliments from co-workers for having a "good hand"). Do I just need to move past this to truely embrace the parametric model method? How are others coping. Do I need to see a therapist?

Thanks for reading, look forward to moving my drawings to the next level.

Cheers, Mark

Nevada City Design Studio

VWA/RW 11.5.1

1.0 GHz 15" Powerbook FW800 1.5 GB RAM

OS 10.4.3

[Robert Anderson]

quote:

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Also, heavy profiling of objects (and lightening of lines as they recede) is ingrained in my sense of "rightness" of architectural graphics (I guess I'm old enough to to remember --fondly-- compliments from co-workers for having a "good hand"). Do I just need to move past this to truely embrace the parametric model method? How are others coping. Do I need to see a therapist?

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Not at all -- at least, not on VectorWorks' sake. If you want to profile an area of an elevation quickly, try using one of the new modes of the Polygon tool: lasso and paintbucket. It's important to note that this tool (and these modes) work in viewport annotation groups. This means that profiling is quite easy.

[Mark McCay-Moran]

quote:

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Not at all -- at least, not on VectorWorks' sake.

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OK, OK, *another* reason to see a therapist

Thanks for the reply, Robert. I'm afraid I may have confused the issue by posting in this thread while still using VWA 11.5.1. My fault (back to the therapist).

Lasso and paintbucket, sounds like I need this tool! I'm also wondering if the VP "class over-ride" (not available in 11 either) is a solution to my line wt woes (as discussed in the current topic about Section VPs). Thanks again.

Cheers, mmm

[Kevin]

Robert, that all sounds great, but how do we deal with the extra lines that need to be removed from the "hidden line" view? On top of that, how do we deal with the lines that do not appear? This often happens at roofs or where roofs meet walls.

I currently do a "Convert Copy to Lines", Ungroup, and then remove and add lines as needed.

[Ramon PG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Anderson:

Not at all -- at least, not on VectorWorks' sake. If you want to profile an area of an elevation

quickly

, try using one of the new modes of the Polygon tool: lasso and paintbucket. It's important to note that this tool (and these modes)

work in viewport annotation groups

. This means that profiling is quite easy. [/QB]

---

I do miss the line width highlining or profiling. How exactly do these tools work to do this faster?

[ 12-19-2005, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Ramon PG ]

[Ramon PG]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin:

Robert, that all sounds great, but how do we deal with the extra lines that need to be removed from the "hidden line" view? On top of that, how do we deal with the lines that do not appear? This often happens at roofs or where roofs meet walls.

I currently do a "Convert Copy to Lines", Ungroup, and then remove and add lines as needed.

---

With VW 12.0 the hidden line is acceptable, but some lines as you mention do not appear. Worst case is lines that you'd like to erase. I would suggest you simply ADD instead of convert to line (which IMHO creates a line mess). And add white lines where you want to "erase".

Not the ideal, but works in the meantime.

[ 12-19-2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Ramon PG ]

[Kevin]

Thanks Ramon. That is encouraging. However, I am reluctant to put much effort forth in annotations.

I have had viewports disappear in VW11.5. Spending hours to fine-tune a viewport if fine if it remains permanant. But opening a file to find that all that hard work has vanished is most disheartening.

[Robert Anderson]

If you've had viewports disappear in 11.0.0 to 11.0.1 or 11.5.0, this is usually a class issue. Class visibility behavior of viewports themselves changed slightly between these versions. There is no reason to avoid using viewport annotations; indeed, they can be the most efficient way to accomplish a variety of tasks.

As for the other question, (re: highlighting,) you simply use the polygon tool in "lasso" mode to surround the portion of the elevation you want to profile. Then set the resulting polygon to no fill and the lineweight you want for the profile. (Easier done than said.)

[Ramon PG]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin:

Thanks Ramon. That is encouraging. However, I am reluctant to put much effort forth in annotations.

I have had viewports disappear in VW11.5. Spending hours to fine-tune a viewport if fine if it remains permanant. But opening a file to find that all that hard work has vanished is most disheartening.

---

Happened to me too in v11-11.5, but so far never in v12.0

I must tell you that Section Viewports alone are worth the upgrade.

[Ramon PG]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Anderson:

As for the other question, (re: highlighting,) you simply use the polygon tool in "lasso" mode to surround the portion of the elevation you want to profile. Then set the resulting polygon to no fill and the lineweight you want for the profile. (Easier done than said.)

---

...a dream come true.

WOW!!

[Travis]

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Anderson:

So you can think of it as a "trick by design".

---

I think, Robert, I'm going to start using that line with some of my clients. At least the one's that like the design!!

Thanks for your continued help on these boards.

[Kevin]

Robert: The polygon trick is great info, thanks. As for vanishing viewports, it is not a class issue. Yes, that was my first thought.

It is a bug of some sort. I have submitted a file to NNA for analysis.

[Robert Anderson]

Kevin, it's not so much a "trick" as one of the main reasons the tool was enhanced. So you can think of it as a "trick by design".