SLLOOWWW

[Tom Klaber]

Vectorworks seems to be running slower and slower.  It will just stop and think about nothing for MINUTES.  A change in sheet layer will be met with 3 to 5 minutes sitting there.  No operation done - just a change in view.  The view is visible - but it will go into Not Responding for MINUTES.  What is going on??  What is it thinking about?? Its just a sheet with 2 elevations.  It is so frustrating. 

[Tom Klaber]

Even changing panels in the Navigation panel - not even switching layers - just switching between Sheet Layers and Design Layers in the Navigation pane - can seize VW up for minutes.  

 

What is going on??

[michaelk]

If you were on a Mac I'd advise running VW in a different "stock" test user account to see if there is any problems with your preferences and/or whatever system extensions are called now 🙂.  

 

Usually works.

[zoomer]

VW 2022 seems to have some memory leeks on (at least M1) Macs.

 

If you are still on the Lenovo/Windows (as in signature) ....

could you please look at your taskmanager, if in such situations,

VW on Windows will also use an unrealistic amount of RAM ?

 

Beside,

the typical recommendations on Windows :

- checking that VW is set to use max power in energy settings

- updating to latest GPU driver, directly from Nvidia

- checking that VW will not accidentally use onboard GPU only

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by zoomer

[Jeff Prince]

11 hours ago, Tom Klaber said:

Vectorworks seems to be running slower and slower.  It will just stop and think about nothing for MINUTES.  A change in sheet layer will be met with 3 to 5 minutes sitting there.  No operation done - just a change in view.  The view is visible - but it will go into Not Responding for MINUTES.  What is going on??  What is it thinking about?? Its just a sheet with 2 elevations.  It is so frustrating. 

Vectorworks is a bit like a grandpa,

riding a mobility scooter,

with 1 bad wheel…

 

A wealth of knowledge, but could use a hip replacement to move a bit quicker.

[Andy Broomell]

I’ve been having a lot of long random hangs lately too. Very frustrating. 

[line-weight]

See the discussion on the last few pages of this thread -

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/93360-mac-studio-m1-ultra/page/4/

[Jeremy Best]

Hey @Tom Klaber, I know you're super experienced so please excuse me if this you've already accounted for the following possibilities:

 

Have you established if this behaviour is specific to this file? If it is then you have a good indicator that either:

• An object type present in the file may need refinement by Vectorworks engineers, or
• (More likely in my experience) one or more objects are corrupt.
• (Most likely in my experience) you may have 'far out objects.'

If it happens in multiple other files, it could be a software bug/inefficiency but it's more likely to be due to corrupt Vectorworks 'Settings' files, '.plist' file (if on Mac) or 'Registry' data (if on Windows). In which case you can use the good ol' Resetting Vectorworks Preferences process to correct this. However I prefer to try removing only the Vectorworks 'Settings' folder in the first instance (while Vectorworks is closed/quit). It has a pretty high rate of success and saves effort if no further action is required. 

[Tom Klaber]

So - its definitely a memory issue.  I have isolated it to the fact that after I publish the set - the memory is shot - consumed to 96% and will not recover.  I have 32 GB - but I need to quit VW / restart the machine to get any useability back.  This is extra frustrating because if I need to make a small change to the export - I have to republish which will Cookie Monster my memory like a sheet of warm fresh baked Tollhouse chocolate chip cookies. 

 

I am not tech savvy enough to understand why this would be - but I have noticed that the more BIM hidden line renderings I have the worst it is. 

[line-weight]

For me, the problem seems to be related to file size. I have one large file (>1GB) where things get slow enough that it becomes pretty much unusable. Then I have some smaller files (in the region of 100-300MB) where VW2022 seems not to struggle in the same way.

 

It would be interesting to know if others have noticed some kind of file size threshold where things start to go wrong.

[michaelk]

I routinely have file sizes between 1GB and 1.5GB.  Usually without problems. 🙂 

 

When I do have stability issues, lately I've been looking at PDFs in the drawing.  Deleting them feels good, even if it doesn't really help.

 

[Jeremy Best]

On 4/6/2022 at 8:44 PM, line-weight said:

For me, the problem seems to be related to file size. I have one large file (>1GB) where things get slow enough that it becomes pretty much unusable. Then I have some smaller files (in the region of 100-300MB) where VW2022 seems not to struggle in the same way.

 

File size is a poor indicator of how impactful a file will be for Vectorworks / a computer to work with. This is because you can have a file that is small in size, yet contains huge amounts of geometry that will tax a computer hard for certain processes. Images/textures and PDFs consume huge amounts of file space/size compared to geometry. It does depend on what you're doing, but geometry and related operations incur more CPU demands than images/textures usually do but the graphics card will work harder when more of either are present. If both the files you refer to have no textures, images or PDFs then yes, the file size will be an appropriate gauge for processing demands. 

[line-weight]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Best said:

 

File size is a poor indicator of how impactful a file will be for Vectorworks / a computer to work with. This is because you can have a file that is small in size, yet contains huge amounts of geometry that will tax a computer hard for certain processes. Images/textures and PDFs consume huge amounts of file space/size compared to geometry. It does depend on what you're doing, but geometry and related operations incur more CPU demands than images/textures usually do but the graphics card will work harder when more of either are present. If both the files you refer to have no textures, images or PDFs then yes, the file size will be an appropriate gauge for processing demands. 

 

How about memory demands though? Because when I have problems it seems to be related to memory, rather than processing power. Most of the time VW barely taxes the processors (which is why these memory issues are frustrating).

[Jeremy Best]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:38 PM, line-weight said:

 

How about memory demands though? Because when I have problems it seems to be related to memory, rather than processing power. Most of the time VW barely taxes the processors (which is why these memory issues are frustrating).

 

I'd say that the memory demands of geometry and imagery (when in Wireframe) are similarly proportionate to how it occurs in saved file size. 

 

If you're experiencing massive memory demands here are some factors that come to mind from my experience helping users with problem files: 

1. Settings that invoke a LOT of geometry to be displayed. I expect this will be more impactful in Sheet Layers. Settings such as: 
   1. Hatches applied in the drawing that either contain A LOT of line segments OR are set to a scale that means the pattern is repeated resulting in the same. 
   2. High levels of detail displayed, in 2D or 3D. Check: 
      1. 2D Conversion Resolution in Vectorworks Preferences. 
      2. View > Rendering > Shaded Options… > 'Detail' 
2. 2D or 3D objects that include a lot more geometry than is apparent. 
   1. I've had a case where some imported SketchUp objects caused massive performance problems. (Particular to the object concerned).
   2. There are/were certain line types introduced by imported DXF/DWG files produced by AutoCAD (I think) that when imported into Vectorworks came in as millions of individual line segments so small you couldn't tell without zooming right in. 
3. Corrupt object/s. (Take this one with a grain of salt because I can recall a case where this was suspected but I don't recall verifying this was cause). 

That's probably not all, but I hope it's useful and helps at least paint a picture of why some users experience troubles like this while others using the same hardware and Vectorworks version do not. 

[line-weight]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Best said:

 

I'd say that the memory demands of geometry and imagery (when in Wireframe) are similarly proportionate to how it occurs in saved file size. 

 

If you're experiencing massive memory demands here are some factors that come to mind from my experience helping users with problem files: 

1. Settings that invoke a LOT of geometry to be displayed. I expect this will be more impactful in Sheet Layers. Settings such as: 
   1. Hatches applied in the drawing that either contain A LOT of line segments OR are set to a scale that means the pattern is repeated resulting in the same. 
   2. High levels of detail displayed, in 2D or 3D. Check: 
      1. 2D Conversion Resolution in Vectorworks Preferences. 
      2. View > Rendering > Shaded Options… > 'Detail' 
2. 2D or 3D objects that include a lot more geometry than is apparent. 
   1. I've had a case where some imported SketchUp objects caused massive performance problems. (Particular to the object concerned).
   2. There are/were certain line types introduced by imported DXF/DWG files produced by AutoCAD (I think) that when imported into Vectorworks came in as millions of individual line segments so small you couldn't tell without zooming right in. 
3. Corrupt object/s. (Take this one with a grain of salt because I can recall a case where this was suspected but I don't recall verifying this was cause). 

That's probably not all, but I hope it's useful and helps at least paint a picture of why some users experience troubles like this while others using the same hardware and Vectorworks version do not. 

 

Thanks, yes, I'm aware of most of those potential issues. But at some point, however careful you are about not including unnecessary geometry, a file may reach a size that VW struggles with from a memory point of view. And my experience is that it's this threshold that is the bottleneck, rather than what the CPU can deal with. It is exacerbated by what seems to be some kind of memory leak problem - which is what eventually makes a certain file size completely unmanageable.

[Jeremy Best]

Hey @Tom Klaber, I've just been re-digesting your comments here and thought I'd restate what I think is likely going on in this case and what will likely help.

 

First, an anecdote (not a prediction of what's going on for you): 

I had a case recently where a user was working on a massive development. It consisted mostly of efficiently drawn polylines and polygons - so no problem there - but they had applied Hatches and Line Types to almost every single object, and the complexity of those patterns induced a lot of processing that was somewhat noticeable when zooming/panning, but was more of a problem when rendering in Hidden Line and the like which incurred massive memory consumption - maxed out my 32 GB of memory. 

 

Regarding speed/performance:

As you've not confirmed having Reset Vectorworks Preferences yet, this is definitely the most sensible next step. I've seen both corrupt Workspace files and Vectorworks Settings files and/or Windows Registry data cause Vectorworks to become very slow. The Resetting Vectorworks Preferences process will rule these likely causes out so I suggest you do this first. You can restore your customisations, notes database, libraries etc into the new User Folder after verifying if performance (not memory consumption) is improved when using this same file. Be sure to backup your Vectorworks User Folder and grab your Vectorworks serial number before you begin this process. 

 

Regarding memory consumption:

Certain conditions in a file –alone– can cause performance issues and high memory consumption. If your drawing has a lot of geometry in it,  or if Viewports –or the objects in them– are set to display Hatches or Line Types or anything that results in lots of geometry being displayed, you can expect: 

• Vectorworks to use more memory during the Update process. 
• Vectorworks to continue to use a lot of memory after the Update process as it keeps all the resultant geometry 'in mind,' and perhaps as part of the 'Undo' history. 

As others have shared you can regain some of the memory consumed as a result of the process (or the Undo history) by saving the file, closing the file (or perhaps Vectorworks), then reopening. I suggest you: 

Appreciate and adjust (if necessary) the quantity of geometry displayed by Hatches and Line Types in the Design Layer or in Sheet Layer Viewports: 

• Check their complexity. 
• Check if their scale results in mass geometry. 
• Check if Viewports have any Class overrides that cause Hatches or Line Types to display high levels of geometry. 
• You can appreciate how much geometry Viewports will produce, by exporting Sheet Layers as individual PDFs and examining the file size. PDFs don't support the efficiency of 'Symbols' and so every line is stored as an individual object (or as two individual points). 

There are other settings and conditions that can impact Vectorworks' responsiveness, like 'Detail' level of the 'Shaded' render mode or the new-ish '2D Components' feature of symbols, etc, etc. 

 

I recommend keeping Task Manager open on another display to observe and learn how certain operations and conditions impact your computer. (Ctrl-Shift-Esc, and select 'Always on top' in the Options menu). 

 

I hope that helps! 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Jeremy Best
Prepended first paragraph with contextual title.

[line-weight]

I'd be interested to know if anyone has seen any improvement with SP4 now released.

 

My initial testing suggests: not really.

[Tom Klaber]

No.

I have actually noticed an increase in crashes.

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'd be interested to know if anyone has seen any improvement with SP4 now released.

 

It looks like for me it made SL Viewport Rendering better on my M1.

Memory pressure gets brown but it seems to get green and free memory

after each finished viewport before it gets brownish again.

 

I am not totally sure but it looks like there is better swapping for "too" large files too.

It gets brown and slow when it does a task that needs more than available RAM.

But once finished M1 went back to green and navigation is fluid.

 

VW 2022 SP4 still does not give all memory free.

(VW started, sub 1 GB - VW working, then closing all files, VW 4GB)

 

And just with my ugly RVT import projects, 250 MB file size is ok.

but with 360 MB it would need more RAM just for showing the Model on screen,

then switching between Palettes, Selection and view Navigation does lag.

But when you wait until Mac and VW switched and shifted memory to the

current task, it works relatively fluidly.

Not much fun to work but at least possible.

 

(But just early tests on M1 and I want to see in Windows with AMD too)

[zoomer]

Hmmh,

meanwhile I tried SP4 on Windows. I have 4 RW Render Elevations on A0 plan.

 

First I tried still with SP3.1

Overall RAM usage was 59 GB (of total 64 GB)

Then I closed VW 2022, started the Updater, opened VW SP4.

Now the overall RAM is max 34 GB !

 

That is nearly only half as much RAM usage for VW.

Edited June 30, 2022 by zoomer

[line-weight]

Does SP4 continue to have the problem of memory usage gradually creeping up and up and up the longer the file is open?

 

(I've only done a bit of testing so far, haven't tried to spend a day working in it)

[Tom W.]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

Does SP4 continue to have the problem of memory usage gradually creeping up and up and up the longer the file is open?

 

(I've only done a bit of testing so far, haven't tried to spend a day working in it)

 

I'm cautiously optimistic it's a bit better. My memory frequently hits 20+ GB then 30+ GB in the course of a day, until I have to shut everything down + start again. Today it's stayed under 20 until just now when I updated a load of references: it went up to 26 GB whilst the update was taking place + went down to 22 GB on finishing.

[zoomer]

^ I have similar experience so far.

SP4 is better for me. Maybe still not all fixed but definitely better.

 

OK, could be related latest macOS public Beta improvements too.

 

 

[Tom W.]

Now it's gone down to 14GB! It never used to go down again: once it was up it stayed up + just got higher... I am on Big Sur but perhaps it's time to upgrade to Monterey?

[line-weight]

Well I just spent a bit of time doing my favourite procastination/avoiding real work activity: unpaid beta testing for VW.

 

I've compared VW2021 SP5 with VW2022 SP4 (as part of my decision making process about whether I dare move to using VW2022). This is using quite a large file and it's on my mac mini M1 16GB running monterey 12.2.

 

The numbers are gb of memory use by VW according to Activity Monitor.

 

 

Note that 2022 seems to behave better, memory wise, up until step 7. However, once I untick "save VP cache" in document preferences everything starts to go wrong.

 

I have several sheet layers in this file which contain a large number (eg 44) of renderworks viewports. Where these have been rendered out in a previous session, and the completed render images are retained in the file thanks to "save VP cache" being ticked, then VW2022 can deal with that sheet layer. It doesn't use loads of memory, and I can pan and zoom about it reasonably well.

 

But once I've unticked that box, and reopen the file, all of those VPs are shown with a wireframe view of the model, because the rendered images haven't been cached. This causes issues in VW2021 and VW2022 - a much larger amount of memory is used, and panning/zooming around that sheet layer becomes very slow indeed. But it's worse in VW2022 than in VW2021. And when I want to switch to another, similar sheet layer, then VW2021 can cope with this but VW2022 can't.

 

What this means for me, at least with this file, is that I potentially can't operate using VW2022 because as far as I can see, there may be certain sheet layers that I simply can't access. I potentially can't even get at those sheet layers to reduce the number of viewports to a level that VW2022 can deal with. Maybe by keeping "save VP cache" ticked, I can render a sheet layer, save and close the file, reopen it, move to another sheet layer, but that's very laborious especially if it's necessary each time I change something. Or maybe if I left things running with memory at 56gb and beachballs spinning for long enough it would eventually settle, but I suspect not.

 

I'd be interested if anyone else can replicate the same thing. My guess is that you can, if you just increase the number of VPs on a sheet layer to some threshold amount.

 

[line-weight]

By the way something I don't understand about the memory figures in Activity Monitor...

 

 

If I add up the memory usage of all the apps it comes to >48GB

 

But if I add "memory used" + "cached files" + "swap used" I only get about 32GB.

 

Why don't they match up?