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On 3/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, SteveJ said:

The multi-core and GPU/Metal/DirectX performance wins for Vectorworks currently occur with the everyday, every minute, every second workflows of changing views and navigating your complex design. Switching and redrawing in Top/Plan, switching to and navigating 3D views, working with large files with large number of classes and more. I think/hope those using Apple silicon already can remind us of the these wins.

This is where I'd really like to see gains. The pauses we can experience doing these things interrupts focus and can have quite a knock effect for productivity. I'm curious to see if there are no more intermittent pauses when panning/zooming for instance. Scrolling performance in the Nav Palette and Organisation Window is one I'm curious about to.

 

P.S. by far the biggest performance gain for me regarding age Publish command would be fixing VB-182568, which is that viewports get unnecessarily updated when I export to DWG.

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M:

 

yeah the iMac Pro ran 2021 and earlier without incident. stable. 2022 reminds me of 2009 which was also a crash-o-matic. Twinmotion has only crashed on me, maybe three times in the last 6 months whereas 2022 has already lock up the machine twice today. Am convinced Apple is still pissed at Unreal for the whole fiasco, what 6 months ago? Guessing they won't lift a finger to open the path tracer window.  I'm stuck in an apple universe but the lack of AR and no path tracing does give me pause to consider a dedicated windows workstation. All of this makes my head spin.

 

Too bad I can't use the iMac Pro as just a display and save on the overpriced monitor.

 

Thanks for taking time to summarize all this. 

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1 hour ago, jnr said:

2022 reminds me of 2009 which was also a crash-o-matic.

 

That really shouldn't be the case. This is purely anecdotal but I've found that uninstalling VW using the uninstaller app--SAVING MY USER FOLDER when it prompts--has made for a very crash-free experience. I would def reach out to tech support or maybe someone will respond here to help you with that. Might need to send some crash logs to the VW team.

 

1 hour ago, jnr said:

Am convinced Apple is still pissed at Unreal for the whole fiasco, what 6 months ago? Guessing they won't lift a finger to open the path tracer window.

 

Considering that they figured out how to create lock-in with a monitor (won't work with Mac's earlier than 2015 or some PC's), I'm convinced they won't move forward with new tech unless it creates lock in (to their ecosystem).

 

1 hour ago, jnr said:

Guessing they won't lift a finger to open the path tracer window.

 

The Epic/TM team is working on a solution because they're not holding their breath for Apple.

 

1 hour ago, jnr said:

I'm stuck in an apple universe but the lack of AR and no path tracing does give me pause to consider a dedicated windows workstation. All of this makes my head spin.

 

The Stockholm Syndrome is strong. Right there with ya... 

 

If nothing else, the Studio is a better Trash Can (hopefully).

 

BTW it took me about 24 hours to sell my iMac Pro, and got a great return on it. Unlike the current crop, it will run Boot Camp, Windows 10 on Parallels, and macOS Catalina and earlier (I hate Bug Sir with a passion). Plus it's been discontinued, so it's a rare gem of a sleeper hit. It's a good machine for the right person.

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I drink the service select koolaid and have barked about the complete instability of 2022, sent crash info, and so on to no avail. Maybe I need to continue barking. Seems all the guys who were great at support have moved on (Wilson!!!).

Hate to do it but may follow your advice and do a full uninstall but will reach out to tech support.

And here's to Epic solving the path tracer for Mac. Lot of chatter in Twinmotion world about the lack of that option. 

Studio clearly after the trash can market. People like me who can't justify a cheese grater, but now with 27" iMac DOA, need that step above consumer level computing power. We're back to separates. At least the overpriced monitor will last thru a couple of cpu iterations.

Apple will give me $1300 for the iMac Pro on trade in. And since I'm already swimming in the Big Sur pond, in the interim perhaps forced to upgrade to Monterey. Fingers crossed that 2022 issues with it were solved with latest 12 version.

 

thanks for listening and the advice.

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

I retain a little hope that some magic may be able to happen behind the scenes such that SP3 or beyond might allow me to transition to 2022 without having to buy a new computer.

 

I think it's the "buying a new computer" and "running it on the latest OS" that's causing the headache. As a rule, I stay 1 full release behind on macOS. Likewise, the last Intel Mac's were the most stable workhorses (the most refined of their generation). But always upgrading to the latest macOS on the latest Mac seems to cause the most issues for the greatest number of people (see also: Butterfly Keyboard). Something about bleeding edge... 

 

I'll let the folks at VW explain the diff between Rosetta (2021) and native (2022) but I also wouldn't hold VW accountable for running smoothly on first-gen bottom of the line machines. The M1 MacBook Air and Mac Mini are literally the 2 weakest machines in the entire lineup. I'm a "pick your battles" guys, and that's not a hill I'd want to die on.

 

Final thought: I read the same angry mob pitchfork comments every time Apple release a new OS, and I'm absolutely dumbfounded that everyone hasn't figured out yet that the common denominator is Apple. I've been a Mac user since the 80's, so for whoever needs to read this, don't upgrade right away. If you're using macOS and a Mac in a production environment (read: billing clients for your work), wait until at least .3 for macOS, and don't buy the first version of anything. Heck, for all we know, the Studio could have thermal throttling issues, Hoover dust until it chokes, or leave burn marks on your desk. Most Apple products are on a 3-4 year update cycle, so Year 3 of iPhones and Mac's is *chef's kiss* (year one is rolling the dice; production roulette).

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7 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

 

I think it's the "buying a new computer" and "running it on the latest OS" that's causing the headache.

 

Except, as I say, VW2021 runs fine on the new computer and on the latest OS.

 

I agree with much of what you say. I actually am normally several versions of macOS and VW behind the latest one. A combination of circumstances meant that last year I decided to move from a quite ancient mac pro to the M1 mini, and I knew this was a bit risky. I satisfied myself that VW2021 could run OK on the M1 before selling the old computer.

 

My comments are really centred on the change from VW2021 to 2022, and were in response to the comment from @SteveJ "I think/hope those using Apple silicon already can remind us of the these wins."

 

 

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17 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

BTW it took me about 24 hours to sell my iMac Pro, and got a great return on it. Unlike the current crop, it will run Boot Camp, Windows 10 on Parallels, and macOS Catalina and earlier (I hate Bug Sir with a passion). Plus it's been discontinued, so it's a rare gem of a sleeper hit. It's a good machine for the right person.

 

Looks like the 27" iMac (non-Pro) has also been discontinued (for now), so you have an even rarer gem.

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Posted (edited)

The Mac Studio has made me curious about the Mac Pro now. Why should I get a Mac Studio for this price when I could get a base model Mac Pro for a similar price and upgrade it over time with cheaper 3rd party components? But what sort of upgradability is a future Apple Silicon Mac Pro going to have?

 

All a bit annoying because I wanted to make purchases before the end of the financial year in April!

Edited by Christiaan
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Looks to me a bit like the "Studio" could be a bit overkill for Vectorworks really. Especially if it's the case that it's mainly amount of memory that's the constraint.

 

I will be interested to see what the M2 mac minis have to offer. Will they deliberately constrain memory and HDD size to stop people like me using mac minis instead of Studios or Pros?

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L-W:

 

Happens on non apple chips but 2022.  Eats 32gb of memory, then I get an entire OS lockup and crash. Usually its on a graphic move (like a pan) but not always. As you mention, just closing the file doesn't help (if I can catch it before it crashes).  2021 was very stable for me. Should have never upgraded but too late now. 

 

SP3 next week? (middle of the month fellas). 

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12 hours ago, jnr said:

L-W:

 

Happens on non apple chips but 2022.  Eats 32gb of memory, then I get an entire OS lockup and crash. Usually its on a graphic move (like a pan) but not always. As you mention, just closing the file doesn't help (if I can catch it before it crashes).  2021 was very stable for me. Should have never upgraded but too late now. 

 

SP3 next week? (middle of the month fellas). 

 

I wonder if the memory just gets filled up regardless of how much there is available.

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5 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

I wonder if the memory just gets filled up regardless of how much there is available.

 

I have 48GB memory. It just gradually creeps up in Activity Monitor. I have three files open right now. I'm not doing anything + it's sitting at 20.47GB. This will continue to gradually increase + things will become sluggish. Once it's over 30GB I'll close VW + restart it + reopen the files + it'll be back down to 5 or 6GB then the process starts again. A current file has five non-cached referenced files in it + takes 14mins to open each time so not fun having to do this.

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Reading through this leaves me shaking my head and wondering 'what the heck to do' concerning a future upgrade. And I thought it was difficult determining the best method for smoking brisket on the offset.

LOL

Seriously--sort of---I am running a 2017 iMac 27" 3.4GHz Core i5 with 40GB ram and the Radeon Pro 570 4 GB card.

For the most part it is working fine with VW 2022 running files between say 250 & 350 MB.

 

Looking forward, I have two goals---Redshift rendering that doesn't take a week when not 'freezing' and the ability to use Twin Motion.

I reckon I will keep reading this thread.

🙂

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On Friday I tried unticking "Use VectorCaching for faster drawing" in VW preferences but it didn't make much difference.

 

Just did a quick test of what you suggested - I had "save viewport cache" and "save VGM graphics cache" both ticked, but unticked them, saved doc, closed VW and restarted.

 

This is in VW2021:

- File reduced from >2GB to 1.2GB

- Opening the file in VW immediately occupies 14.9GB of memory according to Activity Monitor

- By cycling through a few saved views, without editing anything, I could get it up to 21GB quite quickly

- closing the file left VW occupying 6GB of memory (no other files open except for an empty "Untitled 1" file).

 

So my impression is it doesn't improve things.

 

I see there's also a box "save site model cache". I've not tried unticking that yet, might try that later/tomorrow.

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@line-weightthat's interesting. So even though you were working with a file that's roughly have the size, it sounds like there was no RAM savings. Do you notice relative performance improvements or slow-downs with either option enabled or disabled?

 

The only other thing I was wondering about is that the timing of VW upgrades coincides with macOS upgrades. Did you upgrade to Monterey around the time you upgraded to v2022? Were you ever using v2021 on Monterey? Would be great to rule out macOS in this process of elimination game... 

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On 3/12/2022 at 4:30 AM, line-weight said:

 

I wonder if the memory just gets filled up regardless of how much there is available.

 

Same. Would be great if someone from the VW team could explain how VW manages unified memory. Are there VW limits of how much VRAM or RAM that can be used. Like on a 16gb M1 machine, will VW cap VRAM at 8gb and RAM at 8b? What about a 128gb M1 machine?

 

BTW the VW system requirements for v2022 are:

  • Mid-level Profile
    • 16gb RAM
    • 3gb VRAM
    • 19gb total
  • High-end Profile:
    • 32GB RAM or more
    • 8GB VRAM or more
    • 40gb total or more

IMPORTANT – Several Vectorworks features have placed higher demands on graphic hardware. Additionally, the performance and quality of the graphics provided by the Vectorworks Graphics Module depend directly on the speed, memory, and supported extensions of the graphics card. These features have the potential to provide a very fast and fluid experience if used on capable hardware, or a noticeably slower experience if used on older or incompatible hardware. Graphics cards should support at a minimum macOS Metal GPUFamily1 and Windows DirectX 11; cards not meeting this recommendation will not work. In general, the more powerful your graphics card is, the better your Vectorworks experience will be.

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