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Half-rack rear mounted and symbol insertion point


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Possible bugs, or me doing something wrong?

 

1. A rear mounted half-rack equipment item drawn on the left side in rack elevation comes up on the right side in 3D layout.

 

2. When a symbol is used for an equipment item, it seems like the 3D layout does not take into consideration the symbol insertion point? For example when the rack ears are situated 30mm back from the front of a device. So it really should stick out from the rack in the front but is placed too far back with the front of the symbol in line with the rack strips.

 

Also this could have been corrected with the mounting depth option, but seems like that value can't be negative? So moving it further in to the rack is the only option?

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hello @Rune Røsten,

 

12 hours ago, Rune Røsten said:

1. A rear mounted half-rack equipment item drawn on the left side in rack elevation comes up on the right side in 3D layout.

- what you see in the 2D rack is the front view of the 3D rack. So, when you place an equipment on the left side, be it front or rear mounted, it will appear on the left side when you look at the 3D equipment from the front side. If this is not the case for you, can you send me a test file showing what you see?

 

12 hours ago, Rune Røsten said:

2. When a symbol is used for an equipment item, it seems like the 3D layout does not take into consideration the symbol insertion point? For example when the rack ears are situated 30mm back from the front of a device. So it really should stick out from the rack in the front but is placed too far back with the front of the symbol in line with the rack strips.

- The equipment item needs symbols to have their insertion point placed on top left front of their graphics. If this is not the case the equipment item makes some adjustments, so that the graphics look correctly inside the 3D rack and not going through any of its walls. There is a little offset left in the front for the ears to stick out of the rack. So for now I am afraid that there is no way to change this. Can you share a test file with your equipment item in the 3D rack, so that I can see how it looks?

 

13 hours ago, Rune Røsten said:

Also this could have been corrected with the mounting depth option, but seems like that value can't be negative? So moving it further in to the rack is the only option?

- Yes.

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

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13 hours ago, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

Hello @Rune Røsten,

 

- what you see in the 2D rack is the front view of the 3D rack. So, when you place an equipment on the left side, be it front or rear mounted, it will appear on the left side when you look at the 3D equipment from the front side. If this is not the case for you, can you send me a test file showing what you see?

 

- The equipment item needs symbols to have their insertion point placed on top left front of their graphics. If this is not the case the equipment item makes some adjustments, so that the graphics look correctly inside the 3D rack and not going through any of its walls. There is a little offset left in the front for the ears to stick out of the rack. So for now I am afraid that there is no way to change this. Can you share a test file with your equipment item in the 3D rack, so that I can see how it looks?

 

- Yes.

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

Tank you for your time @Nikolay Zhelyazkov

 

1. Yes, this corresponds with what I see but I don't understand why and I don't agree with the logic 🙂. When drawing in "Rear Rack View" (Top/Plan) I think it is logical that the view is from the back. Not viewed through the front. When making viewports of the rear of a rack, where there in my world (touring and rental audio) is a lot of panels and equipment items, the view in both 2D and 3D should be with the rack spun 180 degrees. Actually, this is not a problem with full-rack width items but will be problematic for half-rack items. 

 

2. Moving the insertion point to the top left front (of the rack ears) makes it offset a little bit, but not enough. I attached a file where the UPS has its rack ears mounted 62mm in from the front of the device. This device should stick out 62mm in front of the rack.

 

The file also includes a sheet layer where I think my challenge with half-rack rear mounted devices are clear.

Half-rack rear mounted and symbol insertion point Test.vwx

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

@Rune Røsten Regarding:

 

1. Thanks for your feedback. It is a matter of opinion. For example in architecture it is very common to work on reflected ceiling plans because they are easier to coordinate with the floor plan underneath. The same applies when designing rack layouts. By viewing rear-mounted equipment from the front it is easier to coordinate it with the front-mounted equipment. If you need to generate a true rear view for installers then it's best to render the model in a viewport. ConnectCAD has been working in this way since the year 2000.

 

2. Can't you do what you need with the Equipment . Mounting Depth parameter?

 

Best

 

Conrad

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hello @Rune Røsten,

 

1) You can actually rotate your Rear Viewport at 180 degrees and then flip it vertically. That way it will look like it is observed from the rear.

 

2) We will see what we can do about this. Would it be enough to make the Mounting Depth take negative values?

 

Thanks for the feedback!

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/28/2022 at 10:53 AM, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

Hello @Rune Røsten,

 

1) You can actually rotate your Rear Viewport at 180 degrees and then flip it vertically. That way it will look like it is observed from the rear.

 

2) We will see what we can do about this. Would it be enough to make the Mounting Depth take negative values?

 

Thanks for the feedback!

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

1) Yes. If I did not use symbols. With symbols this will not work.
2) Yes. To be able to make the mounting depth take negative values will be sort of a workaround (but it will work). I guess the best way would probably be to actually use the insertion point.

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On 2/28/2022 at 7:58 AM, Conrad Preen said:

@Rune Røsten Regarding:

 

1. Thanks for your feedback. It is a matter of opinion. For example in architecture it is very common to work on reflected ceiling plans because they are easier to coordinate with the floor plan underneath. The same applies when designing rack layouts. By viewing rear-mounted equipment from the front it is easier to coordinate it with the front-mounted equipment. If you need to generate a true rear view for installers then it's best to render the model in a viewport. ConnectCAD has been working in this way since the year 2000.

 

2. Can't you do what you need with the Equipment . Mounting Depth parameter?

 

Best

 

Conrad

1. It is a matter of opinion and you are probably right about architects using it that way. But I build racks. And I have never coordinated front-mounted equipment with rear-mounted equipment that way 🙂

I agree on using viewports to render what I need, but it will never be accurate with half-rack equipment on the rear side without making extra steps. Which in turn messes with the 3D layout.

2. As I discussed with Nikolay. The mounting depth parameter does not take negative values. Thus it can only move things further into a rack.

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
On 3/8/2022 at 11:05 PM, Rune Røsten said:

1) Yes. If I did not use symbols. With symbols this will not work.

- I have just tested with equipment item using symbol and this works. Can you send me a test file showing how does it look on your side?

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  • 2 months later...
Posted (edited)

Hi @Nikolay Zhelyazkov,

am facing a similar issue as @Rune Røsten:

I would like to show a front view and a rear view of the racks pretty much the same as the OP. (the rear view shows the front of the rear equipment and the back of the front equipment)

pretty much like this google visio find, but as a line drawing only (no colors, shades etc):


kisspng-19-inch-rack-computer-network-di



this is what I get when using your rotate method. looks almost right, but I still only see the 2D-plan view side (front) of the equipment mounted in the front:

grafik.png.16c700cde0750f06017b3a03a0a68773.png 



how would you show the rear view of a rack in plan view?

is there a way to make use of Vectorworks' 2D views (front, rear, top, bottom, left, right) for the plan views?

 

 

Edited by elc
spacing/layout
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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hello @elc,

 

What do you mean by the rear view of the schematic rack? Does it really matter where the rack ruler is? Isn't it enough to just display the front or rear equipment mounted in that rack in the different views?

 

Best Regards,

Nikolay Zhelyazkov

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hi @Nikolay Zhelyazkov,

we might be talking about two different things? I don't mind the rack ruler position, it's about the view of the devices. both front and rear view show the front of the bottom device (while the 2D text of the half rack device is mirrored).

grafik.png.7099cac91d3260e447ad13363d6845f5.png

 

or what is it you meant? 🙂

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Okay I got it. Well, in order to have front and rear view of an equipment item you have to manually create it. You can edit the equipment item layout and draw the rear view there and put in the Equip-Rear class or any other class if you want. As for the text issue, do you have Adjust flipped text selected for the viewport?

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Posted (edited)

sorry @Nikolay Zhelyazkov but I can't find a way to add different views to the Equipment Item. I assumed I have to create a symbol and connect the equipment item to that symbol in the OIP (please don't mind that the symbol does not correspond to the name. 😉 )
edit: and it only shows the top view of an object (not the front)

grafik.png.b0faaed57bef5ac350e530b9feb235b8.png

in that symbol I have created front and rear views of the object, but *how* can I display them? https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2022/eng/VW2022_Guide/Symbols/Concept_ 2D_components_for_symbol_definitions_and_plug-in.htm#h

 

btw I tried working with section views. looked promising. but with no luck. the 2D views just won't show up. 😕

(see attached modified file)

Half-rack rear mounted and symbol insertion point Test_g.vwx

Edited by elc
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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hello @elc,

 

The equipment item used in racks shows only the front view of the symbol. If you want to have rear view you have to add it in a different class in the front component of the symbol and play with class visibility to show the different views. The other way to go for this is not to use symbol but add all the graphics in the equipment item layout group (double click an equipment item to enter its layout group).

 

And one more way to go for this would be to use the 3D rack and make viewports of its Front/Rear sides. That way you will actually see the equipments front and rear views as seen in 3D.

 

2 minutes ago, elc said:

2. is it possible, that rack frames (frames inside racks) won't show the individual items in 3D view?

- Yes, rack frames do not show their contents in 3D views.

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21 minutes ago, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

If you want to have rear view you have to add it in a different class in the front component of the symbol and play with class visibility to show the different views.

a. yes, that's what I figured, but then the Rear view has to be mirrored in the symbol, when using your method of mirroring the hole rack frame, right? 😕

 

24 minutes ago, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

The other way to go for this is not to use symbol but add all the graphics in the equipment item layout group (double click an equipment item to enter its layout group).

b. yes, I had tried that too. but then that change only applies to that single instance of equipment. not the other ones used in the rack. and this time around I can't use the device picker tool to apply the same to my other items. or did I do something wrong?

 

26 minutes ago, Nikolay Zhelyazkov said:

And one more way to go for this would be to use the 3D rack and make viewports of its Front/Rear sides. That way you will actually see the equipments front and rear views as seen in 3D.

c. yes, I had tried that as well. :) but the problem for me here is that I can only have a rendered view of the 3D object and not a flat line view. or not?

 

 

d. have you had a chance to look at the section view path as seen in my file? this would be the best option to me, but I just can't get the 2D views to work on my layouts.
(since this is one of the main benefits of VW: combining 2D flat views for printing with 3D rendered views?)

 

 

best,

g

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
25 minutes ago, elc said:

a. yes, that's what I figured, but then the Rear view has to be mirrored in the symbol, when using your method of mirroring the hole rack frame, right? 😕

Correct.

 

25 minutes ago, elc said:

b. yes, I had tried that too. but then that change only applies to that single instance of equipment. not the other ones used in the rack. and this time around I can't use the device picker tool to apply the same to my other items. or did I do something wrong?

Also correct.

 

26 minutes ago, elc said:

c. yes, I had tried that as well. :) but the problem for me here is that I can only have a rendered view of the 3D object and not a flat line view. or not?

- Have you tried experimenting with the different render options of the viewports?

 

29 minutes ago, elc said:

d. have you had a chance to look at the section view path as seen in my file? this would be the best option to me, but I just can't get the 2D views to work on my layouts.
(since this is one of the main benefits of VW: combining 2D flat views for printing with 3D rendered views?)

- The equipment item is using the 3D and front graphics of hybrid symbols and it is not taking advantage of all the symbol views that can be used. If you insert the symbol that you are using in the drawing next to the equipment item you will see that it takes advantage of the different views in the viewports.

 

I am not that familiar with rendering. I suggest you contact support if you cannot get the results that you are looking for.

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That's the thing, I would like to avoid rendered (pixel) views in the documentation, as it is very limited in use. Scalable line views (vector) as in all other CCad documentation elements would be the ideal.

 

For now I'll just use a. - the classes-for-views-with-a-flipped-rear workaround. 🙂 

 

 

as always, thanks a lot for your help and taking the time. learned a lot again.

 

 

best,

g

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