Replace a truss symbol in a configuration

[spettitt]

5 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?  I have tried to imagine how a tool/command would respond to a stick of truss having a piece of truss being replaced by a piece of a different length, and I come up short.  Pun intended.  How does the stick respond?  I'm sure there is a workflow and action (by the truss stick) that is imagined, but would someone please describe it.  I have a 40 foot stick of truss composed of 4 - 10 foot pieces.  I replace one of the 2 middle pieces with an 8 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  I replace it with a 12 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  It is possible in both cases to preserve the stick length, but that will require modifying other pieces.  It is possible to allow for the change  in length of the stick, but in which direction, from what end, or should it be from the middle?  What is supposed to happen?  Describe the desired workflow and its result.  What do you think the chances of consensus are?  Real question.  Would the settled on result get in the way of other workflows?  Would that matter?

I would say it should work from the middle. If I replace 5 x 2.5m OV40 with 5 x Tyler GT 8', the logic would be to lookup the length of the original truss, find the middle, then build the new type of truss symmetrically from there. Any attached loads would shift across the cross-section of the truss by the amount the profile has changed. If I'm going from a 400mm truss to a 600mm, lights on the back chord (or anything that side of the centreline) would move 100mm backwards, and v/v for the front chord. When the new truss is shorter, lights that are off the end are disconnected from the system, though can be re-attached.

 

Reading back through the thread - someone mentioned that they don't want to use the inventory features as they are not a rental house. Can I just say that I am indeed in a rental house, and unless the functionality was to be properly integrated in to our rental management software and the dedicated team that uses it, I wouldn't use it either to be honest. Vectorworks can't possibly know whether the truss stated on the inventory is booked on other projects, will work for logistics etc. Maybe for smaller regional events companys or something it could be useful, but it would be ideal if we could have a switch to let Vectorworks know not to bother with inventories and just let things be created.

[Mark Aceto]

9 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?  I have tried to imagine how a tool/command would respond to a stick of truss having a piece of truss being replaced by a piece of a different length, and I come up short.  Pun intended.  How does the stick respond?  I'm sure there is a workflow and action (by the truss stick) that is imagined, but would someone please describe it.  I have a 40 foot stick of truss composed of 4 - 10 foot pieces.  I replace one of the 2 middle pieces with an 8 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  I replace it with a 12 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  It is possible in both cases to preserve the stick length, but that will require modifying other pieces.  It is possible to allow for the change  in length of the stick, but in which direction, from what end, or should it be from the middle?  What is supposed to happen?  Describe the desired workflow and its result.  What do you think the chances of consensus are?  Real question.  Would the settled on result get in the way of other workflows?  Would that matter?

 

The replacement symbol should insert itself at the exact same insertion point, with the same orientation, Z height, etc. If the replacement truss is not the exact same dimension/s, that would break the connection (and some degree of the entire connected system: bridles, hoists, rigging objects, instruments, etc.), so the user would have to manually reconnect the truss (not an uncommon troubleshooting step with Braceworks but it's gotten a lot better in v2023). For a simple system, that would be much easier than the current workflow. For a show with 200 bridles, and all instruments hung, etc. that could be severely worse than the current workflow.

 

That said, I'm dealing with this right now (literally):

1. Drew the ground supported system with Tyler for structural engineering (from an engineering firm)
2. Then I redrew the entire ground supported system with Thomas based on the shop that won the bid
3. Now I'm redrawing most of the system again because the shop sub-rented XFS and Tomcat mixed in with their Thomas

I don't have the solution but users need a more streamlined workflow for these revisions. BTW the first 2 steps are so common, I'd say they're typical. Also, super fun to plate up a drawing set for engineering, and then have to replace all truss in the model, and fix the plates in the engineering set for the installation set.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

10 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?

 

A good question, Sam...

My initial thought:  Something akin to the way replacing Symbols works - though, more elegant:  Select 1 or more Truss objects.  Click on a "Replace" button in the OIP.  A Resource Selector dialog opens, allowing the user to use that familiar environment to select new truss from a location he/she chooses.  The new truss is positioned using its Insertion Point. and that of the piece it is replacing.  Sections mated to the non-I.P. end would be "pushed out" or "pulled in" if lengths don't match what is being replaced.  If multiple, mated, truss sections are being replaced, replacement sections would automatically mate.  If the user is trying to mate differing truss types, he/she would be presented with an alert/error dialog.  If the resulting length is different from original, an alert/error dialog to that effect would be displayed.

 

Make sense?

[Mark Aceto]

45 minutes ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

Sections mated to the non-I.P. end would be "pushed out" or "pulled in" if lengths don't match what is being replaced.

I’m imagining the UI for this dialog similar to moving a door or window in a wall, when the user is presented with an arrow that can be flipped.

[Mark Aceto]

The most problematic thing for me is that I have to build a new inventory. Clearly the tool has none of issues that we’re inventing for it. Just let users pick the same damn symbols from the RM without having to create a freaking inventory first.

 

Imagine adding those steps to lights or architectural objects. Inventory is a solution in search of a problem.

[Kevin Allen]

What if I want to replace a 10' with 2 five footers?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

2 hours ago, Kevin Allen said:

What if I want to replace a 10' with 2 five footers?

 

Simple...if replacing a longer w. a shorter, a pop-up dialog asks you what you want to do - single or multiple.  If multiple, same Resource Selector system asks what the 2nd should be.

[Kevin Allen]

2 minutes ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

Simple...if replacing a longer w. a shorter, a pop-up dialog asks you what you want to do - single or multiple.  If multiple, same Resource Selector system asks what the 2nd should be.

 

But I think this needs to be aded to the VE? I might have missed it. 
 

With the VE as I read it, I would have to replace the 10 with a 5, then move as suggested by @Mark Aceto and then add a stick? We don't have an easy methodology to add?

[Mark Aceto]

I just tried this again to see if there were any enhancements to v2023 (there don't appear to be any to the Replace Truss command), and it's the most infuriating workflow I've ever attempted in VW.  I have the Help file open, documenting the workflow but it would take me longer to learn that workflow than just manually replace everything myself.

 

I would like to know if anyone has ever actually used the Replace Truss command to replace the truss type / symbols in their drawing.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

18 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:

I would like to know if anyone has ever actually used the Replace Truss command to replace the truss type / symbols in their drawing.

 

I have.  Thus multiple VEs and much ranting and gnashing of teeth...

[Mark Aceto]

What users want, and expect, is for the Replace Truss TYPE command to do what it sounds like it would do instead of this calamity:

 

[Mark Aceto]

I want to take that 20.5" 5-way CB and replace it with this 20.5" 5-way CB.

 

MAKE SENSE ?

[Mark Aceto]

Btw with the MASSIVE improvement to dragging and auto-connecting multiple connected truss objects (no longer goes haywire in 6 different directions), the manual method has pulled ahead even further:

 

[Kevin Allen]

1 hour ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

gnashing of teeth...

 

I have invested in your Dentist.

[Mickey]

I saw the part about replacing a run of truss with a not just a different brand but a different type.

Yeah that could be a thing, but maybe out of bounds.

One my main goals would be to replace a same length with a different brand.

Essentially I want to replace a Tomcat with a Thomas, or XSF and  they have the same bolt pattern.

Or a black with a silver.

Replacing a 10' with 2 5'. OK that's a feature I'd like.

There has to be a way to do this.

Back in the day I used to draw all my truss with the "Truss tool" Drag a line, get a 40' truss.

good for a quick rough drawing.

Then when the design would settle I's used "Spotlight/Object Conversion / Replace with Stock symbols"

That worked pretty well.

 

[Jake Wilson]

On 4/7/2022 at 12:04 PM, Mickey said:

Picking this back up.

I started the process. Wow talk about painful and time consuming. Good thing I don't bill by the hour.

But before I get too deep.

Oh wait I can't upload a jpeg still so no visual aids

Please fix this. Am I the only person that can't upload files to the message board?

Here's a link to the jpeg https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjZcVRFAOa0nhOcTjqHuqslM4zVyNA?e=hzNM9g (expires June 1st)

 

So in the jpeg you can't see. There's a "Type" "Name" and "connectable with" fields.

I changed the name, but not type yet.

If I changed type to for example "TC1212" to "TC1212B", and change the connectable with "TC1212B" and I right to assume that it now won't connect with "TC1212"

Can the Connect with field have multiple vallues?

It seems like it should since the black truss can bolt to the silver truss.

Not to mention that the Tomcat has the same bolt pattern as Thomas, XSF etc ...

 

So now I'm back to the "I want to swap between a black truss and silver truss"

I just re read this thread from the start.

So if I understand this correctly if I want to be able to swap between these trusses I need to create a file that has them.

Let's call it Tomcat 12"

Download the symbols from the library

insert each individual symbol on the design layer

right click on each symbol and "Customize Data"

Then save that file into the application folder

And somehow the file I'm currently working in will know to look at the the newly named file I've saved in the application folder?

 

First before I spend any more time on this did I correctly list the line of actions?

 

Second THIS IS BLINDINGLY ABSURD

 

I just want to swap a truss. We can do it with light fixtures. There's a nifty little button "Replace Lighting Device"

Give me that please.

 

Braceworks is a disaster. I'd like to see it spun off as a separate module that people can upgrade to, and give the rest of us simple truss tools so we can design systems.

Let the riggers have the advanced weight calcs.

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking as an ETCP certified arena rigging with 20+ years experience and a VW user for more then a decade, Braceworks SUCKS!!!

 

Braceworks has taken a great program and turned it into a time consuming comedy of errors.

 

No actual rigger needs braceworks for load calculation, we all have our own method and the vast majority use a simple excel doc and a calculator, the only time I get Vectorworks involved is when I have a crowded truss and need to know distances between fixtures to calculate which hoist will see more of it's load and I don't need VW to tell me, all I need is the tape measure tool.

 

Braceworks control and meddling needs to be removed from Vectorworks all together, make it a stand alone app and watch it die.

 

Give use back our legacy Spotlight tools and control.

 

 

[Sam Jones]

Which legacy tools do you want back?

[Jake Wilson]

1 hour ago, Sam Jones said:

Which legacy tools do you want back?

All the one that have migrated to Braceworks control and become a time wasting fustercluck

 

Ever since Braceworks became a thing truss doesn't connect properly, or at the same trim height or in a direction that makes sense, I mean when I'm building a tower and want to add a stick to the top it just makes things easier to have the new stick embed itself into the stick below when you copy paste to the top of a tower, who thinks this is helpful in any way?

 

Or if I grab a truss line and move it 10' upstage why wouldn't I want all the motors I had placed to be deleted instead of staying where i left them to be move where I want them?

 

And the truss tool, worked great last year. Pick your truss, place it set trim height and move on with the job. Now I have to populate a mythical inventory and even once populated name and type the truss before I can start working, WHATS THE POINT OF HAVING AN INVENTORY IF THE NAME AND TYPE IS NOT INCUDED?

 

Why did the hoist origin arrows lose their call out lines? Now the arrows stick to the hoist symbol and just muddy up my drawings making them more difficult to read when printed, did a paying user ask for these changes?

 

These changes are NOT helpful and DO NOT increase workflow.

[scottmoore]

I am coming back to this two year old thread. A couple of questions:

 

1.) when you “change configuration” of an existing truss system, is it expected behavior that the trusses won’t retain their previously assigned class/layer and instead take on the current active class/layer?  That seems to be the case as I have had to reassign classes/layers multiple times today. That seems to me to be very unproductive. 
 

2.) is anyone actually using the inventory aspects of VWX?  Most shops I know (including mine) have inventory systems that track everything, create quotes, POs, invoices, etc. can we please focus on design?  I find myself really liking the rigging functionality and then I have to do something simple like create truss towers with legs, changing the configuration of a system or rotate something and then I want to scrap the entire thing. Just not really up to the task of real world scenarios beyond fairly simple rigging. 

[spettitt]

On 11/9/2024 at 2:37 AM, scottmoore said:

2.) is anyone actually using the inventory aspects of VWX?  Most shops I know (including mine) have inventory systems that track everything, create quotes, POs, invoices, etc. can we please focus on design?

 

Not here - and if you work for any sort of organisation where an inventory can be used in multiple places (a rental house like us, or a venue that shares stock across multiple auditoria, or...), it falls apart. And if we run out of something - we'll just subhire the extra rather than change the design from what it needs to be.

 

I get that the inventory thing might be useful for a certain slice of users - but it's frustrating we all have to deal with something that should be an off-by-default feature, IMO.

 

We don't use the replace truss functions as they are harder work than just drawing the correct configuration next to it and doing a bulk move-by-point of all of the loads/hoists.

[Kevin Allen]

On 11/8/2024 at 9:37 PM, scottmoore said:

can we please focus on design?

I think this needs to be taken to heart.

[scottmoore]

On 11/10/2024 at 12:49 PM, Kevin Allen said:

I think this needs to be taken to heart.

It’s the little things Kevin… the little things. 

[scottmoore]

On 11/10/2024 at 6:21 AM, spettitt said:

 

Not here - and if you work for any sort of organisation where an inventory can be used in multiple places (a rental house like us, or a venue that shares stock across multiple auditoria, or...), it falls apart. And if we run out of something - we'll just subhire the extra rather than change the design from what it needs to be.

 

I get that the inventory thing might be useful for a certain slice of users - but it's frustrating we all have to deal with something that should be an off-by-default feature, IMO.

 

We don't use the replace truss functions as they are harder work than just drawing the correct configuration next to it and doing a bulk move-by-point of all of the loads/hoists.

I would be curious as to who the users are that mess with VWX inventory. Maybe I am wrong, but I can’t imagine how this is really useful as an inventory package. 

[C. Andrew Dunning]

31 minutes ago, scottmoore said:

It’s the little things Kevin… the little things. 

 

The thing is that this should work so simply so as to be invisible.  IMHO, this thread never should have made an appearance...

[Sebastiaan]

A replace truss workflow that I found works well when replacing equal lengths of truss, for instance when I want to replace a 2024 (without chords) truss symbol with a 2025 (with chords) truss symbol is the following: 

 

Select the truss objects to be replaced

run the "convert truss to symbol" command

Use the Symbol OIP 'replace symbol' command to replace the trusses at a symbol level

select one instance of each truss symbol type and run the 'convert to truss' command

VW will prompt if you want to convert all trusses of the same type.

 

Above will work with rotated and raked truss objects, even when replacing with new hybrid truss symbols.

 

I do agree there must come a more user friendly way of replacing trusses. Why not a replace truss button in the OIP similar to the lighting device?

 

A function that would be capable of recalculating entire truss systems when lengths are changed would be a great enhancement task, but I can imagine this being a great programming challenge. A single straight system would not be that difficult I presume, but when corners and various directions com in to play it will be a different game, many many variables in that.

 

Let's just start with a simple way for a user to be able to select one or more truss objects and be able to say 'replace with this truss symbol".