Replace a truss symbol in a configuration

[spettitt]

5 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?  I have tried to imagine how a tool/command would respond to a stick of truss having a piece of truss being replaced by a piece of a different length, and I come up short.  Pun intended.  How does the stick respond?  I'm sure there is a workflow and action (by the truss stick) that is imagined, but would someone please describe it.  I have a 40 foot stick of truss composed of 4 - 10 foot pieces.  I replace one of the 2 middle pieces with an 8 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  I replace it with a 12 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  It is possible in both cases to preserve the stick length, but that will require modifying other pieces.  It is possible to allow for the change  in length of the stick, but in which direction, from what end, or should it be from the middle?  What is supposed to happen?  Describe the desired workflow and its result.  What do you think the chances of consensus are?  Real question.  Would the settled on result get in the way of other workflows?  Would that matter?

I would say it should work from the middle. If I replace 5 x 2.5m OV40 with 5 x Tyler GT 8', the logic would be to lookup the length of the original truss, find the middle, then build the new type of truss symmetrically from there. Any attached loads would shift across the cross-section of the truss by the amount the profile has changed. If I'm going from a 400mm truss to a 600mm, lights on the back chord (or anything that side of the centreline) would move 100mm backwards, and v/v for the front chord. When the new truss is shorter, lights that are off the end are disconnected from the system, though can be re-attached.

 

Reading back through the thread - someone mentioned that they don't want to use the inventory features as they are not a rental house. Can I just say that I am indeed in a rental house, and unless the functionality was to be properly integrated in to our rental management software and the dedicated team that uses it, I wouldn't use it either to be honest. Vectorworks can't possibly know whether the truss stated on the inventory is booked on other projects, will work for logistics etc. Maybe for smaller regional events companys or something it could be useful, but it would be ideal if we could have a switch to let Vectorworks know not to bother with inventories and just let things be created.

[Lunar Waneshaft]

9 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?  I have tried to imagine how a tool/command would respond to a stick of truss having a piece of truss being replaced by a piece of a different length, and I come up short.  Pun intended.  How does the stick respond?  I'm sure there is a workflow and action (by the truss stick) that is imagined, but would someone please describe it.  I have a 40 foot stick of truss composed of 4 - 10 foot pieces.  I replace one of the 2 middle pieces with an 8 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  I replace it with a 12 foot piece.  What is supposed to happen?  It is possible in both cases to preserve the stick length, but that will require modifying other pieces.  It is possible to allow for the change  in length of the stick, but in which direction, from what end, or should it be from the middle?  What is supposed to happen?  Describe the desired workflow and its result.  What do you think the chances of consensus are?  Real question.  Would the settled on result get in the way of other workflows?  Would that matter?

 

The replacement symbol should insert itself at the exact same insertion point, with the same orientation, Z height, etc. If the replacement truss is not the exact same dimension/s, that would break the connection (and some degree of the entire connected system: bridles, hoists, rigging objects, instruments, etc.), so the user would have to manually reconnect the truss (not an uncommon troubleshooting step with Braceworks but it's gotten a lot better in v2023). For a simple system, that would be much easier than the current workflow. For a show with 200 bridles, and all instruments hung, etc. that could be severely worse than the current workflow.

 

That said, I'm dealing with this right now (literally):

1. Drew the ground supported system with Tyler for structural engineering (from an engineering firm)
2. Then I redrew the entire ground supported system with Thomas based on the shop that won the bid
3. Now I'm redrawing most of the system again because the shop sub-rented XFS and Tomcat mixed in with their Thomas

I don't have the solution but users need a more streamlined workflow for these revisions. BTW the first 2 steps are so common, I'd say they're typical. Also, super fun to plate up a drawing set for engineering, and then have to replace all truss in the model, and fix the plates in the engineering set for the installation set.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

10 hours ago, Sam Jones said:

OK.  What should the workflow be?

 

A good question, Sam...

My initial thought:  Something akin to the way replacing Symbols works - though, more elegant:  Select 1 or more Truss objects.  Click on a "Replace" button in the OIP.  A Resource Selector dialog opens, allowing the user to use that familiar environment to select new truss from a location he/she chooses.  The new truss is positioned using its Insertion Point. and that of the piece it is replacing.  Sections mated to the non-I.P. end would be "pushed out" or "pulled in" if lengths don't match what is being replaced.  If multiple, mated, truss sections are being replaced, replacement sections would automatically mate.  If the user is trying to mate differing truss types, he/she would be presented with an alert/error dialog.  If the resulting length is different from original, an alert/error dialog to that effect would be displayed.

 

Make sense?

[Lunar Waneshaft]

45 minutes ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

Sections mated to the non-I.P. end would be "pushed out" or "pulled in" if lengths don't match what is being replaced.

I’m imagining the UI for this dialog similar to moving a door or window in a wall, when the user is presented with an arrow that can be flipped.

[Lunar Waneshaft]

The most problematic thing for me is that I have to build a new inventory. Clearly the tool has none of issues that we’re inventing for it. Just let users pick the same damn symbols from the RM without having to create a freaking inventory first.

 

Imagine adding those steps to lights or architectural objects. Inventory is a solution in search of a problem.

[Kevin Allen]

What if I want to replace a 10' with 2 five footers?

[C. Andrew Dunning]

2 hours ago, Kevin Allen said:

What if I want to replace a 10' with 2 five footers?

 

Simple...if replacing a longer w. a shorter, a pop-up dialog asks you what you want to do - single or multiple.  If multiple, same Resource Selector system asks what the 2nd should be.

[Kevin Allen]

2 minutes ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

Simple...if replacing a longer w. a shorter, a pop-up dialog asks you what you want to do - single or multiple.  If multiple, same Resource Selector system asks what the 2nd should be.

 

But I think this needs to be aded to the VE? I might have missed it. 
 

With the VE as I read it, I would have to replace the 10 with a 5, then move as suggested by @Mark Aceto and then add a stick? We don't have an easy methodology to add?

[Lunar Waneshaft]

I just tried this again to see if there were any enhancements to v2023 (there don't appear to be any to the Replace Truss command), and it's the most infuriating workflow I've ever attempted in VW.  I have the Help file open, documenting the workflow but it would take me longer to learn that workflow than just manually replace everything myself.

 

I would like to know if anyone has ever actually used the Replace Truss command to replace the truss type / symbols in their drawing.

[C. Andrew Dunning]

18 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:

I would like to know if anyone has ever actually used the Replace Truss command to replace the truss type / symbols in their drawing.

 

I have.  Thus multiple VEs and much ranting and gnashing of teeth...

[Lunar Waneshaft]

What users want, and expect, is for the Replace Truss TYPE command to do what it sounds like it would do instead of this calamity:

 

[Lunar Waneshaft]

I want to take that 20.5" 5-way CB and replace it with this 20.5" 5-way CB.

 

MAKE SENSE ?

[Lunar Waneshaft]

Btw with the MASSIVE improvement to dragging and auto-connecting multiple connected truss objects (no longer goes haywire in 6 different directions), the manual method has pulled ahead even further:

 

[Kevin Allen]

1 hour ago, C. Andrew Dunning said:

gnashing of teeth...

 

I have invested in your Dentist.

[Mickey]

I saw the part about replacing a run of truss with a not just a different brand but a different type.

Yeah that could be a thing, but maybe out of bounds.

One my main goals would be to replace a same length with a different brand.

Essentially I want to replace a Tomcat with a Thomas, or XSF and  they have the same bolt pattern.

Or a black with a silver.

Replacing a 10' with 2 5'. OK that's a feature I'd like.

There has to be a way to do this.

Back in the day I used to draw all my truss with the "Truss tool" Drag a line, get a 40' truss.

good for a quick rough drawing.

Then when the design would settle I's used "Spotlight/Object Conversion / Replace with Stock symbols"

That worked pretty well.