Mac V's Windows

[Sonia TSA]

Looking for new computer advice. I have the opportunity to purchase a new computer for work. I've looked at the VW spec. recommendations. My main conflict is Mac v Windows. I've not really used Mac before (other than phones and iPads). A friend recommends Windows for more bang for buck, and more versatility for upgrades. My boss is a big Mac user, but is open to best options. I currently use a lot of image textures and bitmaps in my Landscape plans, and while I haven't done a lot in 3D yet, we'd like to get something that is capable of processing high qualities renders when we are ready to take that step.

[Jeff Prince]

I thought we weren’t supposed to discuss politics or religion on this forum 🙂

it’s really a just personal preference.

If you don’t have IT support, probably best to use the same system as your coworkers.

[Sonia TSA]

Haha! Yeah, I get it's a bit of an unspoken divide with a lot of personal choice! To be clear - my co-workers don't use VW, only me. So it's more about what will be best to run and stay update with VW for me. With no Mac experience, would be good to get feedback from Mac users on any user or upgrade issues they may have faced 🙂

[mjm]

38 minutes ago, Sonia TSA said:

Haha! Yeah, I get it's a bit of an unspoken divide with a lot of personal choice! To be clear - my co-workers don't use VW, only me. So it's more about what will be best to run and stay update with VW for me. With no Mac experience, would be good to get feedback from Mac users on any user or upgrade issues they may have faced 🙂

I hear that bang-for-buck-wise, everyone I have spoken with has said their new M1 machines, esp 32 GB & 64 GB models are crushing it with VWX (aside from the apps issues of course). I haven't heard from folks running Vision or Landmark.

But all that's anecdotal. Plenty of specs out there to be found as well.

[E|FA]

I'm a long time Mac desktop user, and there aren't good M1 options available for VW.  I'm waiting for upgraded M1 Mac Mini or 27" iMac options. When the time comes, I'll probably choose an iMac because I've gotten used to the incredible screen quality.  It sounds like the latest MacBook Pro laptops have plenty of power for my purposes, so I expect the next release of desktops will as well.

 

The big downside of the Mac ecosystem is the very limited ability to upgrade a machine after purchase.  Instead, plan on buying as powerful a computer as you can afford and use it for a long time.  The good news is that they're pretty reliable and Apple is pretty good about offering OS updates for older machines.  

Edited February 8, 2022 by E|FA
typo

[bcd]

Another consideration is rendering, in case you get into 3d

If you need to run Lumion (or Enscape) it's Windows only. You can run Twinmotion on Mac.

Edited February 8, 2022 by bcd

[Jeff Prince]

@Sonia TSA I spent 20 years doing the PC & AutoCAD thing before committing to a Mac & Vectorworks.  I switched over in 2016 and haven’t looked back.  There is an adjustment period with both, but it’s not the hardship people moan about.

 

I got an iPad Pro and iPhone first.  Once I switched my computer to a Mac too, it seemed my work got a lot easier.  The thing that kept me on the Mac was the beautiful screens, stability, high quality physical and digital aesthetics.

 

hope it helps.

[mikeheacox]

The Mac seems a bit easier to maintain than the PC, but there's no huge difference. Either one is less geeky than Linux, but vwx does not run on Linux anyway (I was going to set up a Linux rendering machine to take the rendering load off the PC or Mac in TwinMotion since TM does work in Linux).

 

Macs seem to work better on the network (LAN) - we're still having problems with the Windows Machine, no idea why. Mac-Linux-NAS all work fine, and WIN-NAS works fine. Just not Win - Mac - Linux -  NAS

If you plan on doing rendering on your main machine (TwinMotion...) make sure you get a good graphics card. Our PC (Win 11) isn't quite there, but our 5K iMac (Intel/Nvidia) works well enough. Vwx runs fine on an M1 MacBook - but I haven't tried TwinMotion on the MacBook under Rosetta.

 

Also, not sure but it seems like Mac Metal rendering is faster in VWX than rendering in Windows (RenderWorks, OpenGL?).

[M5d]

14 hours ago, bcd said:

Another consideration is rendering, in case you get into 3d

If you need to run Lumion (or Enscape) it's Windows only. You can run Twinmotion on Mac.

 

There's good news on the Enscape front, it's coming to the Mac in 2022: enscape3d.com/enscape-for-mac/ and they have merged with Chaos. An interesting side note to the merger, Sean Flaherty, former CEO of Vectorworks, will become Chairman of the Chaos Board.   

 

[line-weight]

You can run twinmotion on mac but it looks like they regard windows users as higher priority - recent releases of TM have had features available to PC users but not mac users, who it seems have to wait in line before those things are made available.

 

I'm a fairly long time mac user and I plan to stay that way rather than going through the pain of changing ... but if PC is what you are used to I'm not sure really how much you gain by switching to mac.

 

The thing that mainly concerns me about being a mac user is the limited choice in applications outside of VW - and rendering applications are one of the areas where this is a bit of an issue, especially now that it looks like the way things are going, people are going to be moving to using "real-time" rendering applications like Twinmotion as standard, instead of doing it within VW in Renderworks.

 

As far as I can understand, a lot of the "heavyweight" 3d world has moved from Mac to PC in the past 10 or so years and this affects the choice and types of software available on the platform. I'm not sure to what extent it's true to say that this is partly because Apple seemed to shift its emphasis away from the type of user who'd previously have had a Mac Pro (which used to be quite customisable and upgradable).

[Ross Harris]

On 2/10/2022 at 3:39 AM, line-weight said:

You can run twinmotion on mac but it looks like they regard windows users as higher priority - recent releases of TM have had features available to PC users but not mac users, who it seems have to wait in line before those things are made available.

I don't think it's a case of prioritizing windows users, macs don't support hardware based raytracing which is what twinmotions pathtracer requires. Enscape utilizes raytracing and Nvidia's DLSS for AI based upsampling. So with apple not willing to play ball with raytracing hardware and other advances by more open entities rendering is going to streak ahead on windows machines.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Aspect_Design

[MMGD]

Hello. Having worked with VW landmark on pc for 10 years I’m considering a Mac. Useful thread above. 

 

Don’t know where to start. After a desk top. Can’t work out from selecting models what the graphics card will be, or is it standard and not something needed to specify in macs? 
 

also used to having more than one monitor. Can I attach a large BenQ monitor side by side with Mac?

 

many thanks M

[Jeff Prince]

The MacBook Pro or Studio are your primary choices.  The graphics are built into apple’s chip now.  Seems everybody say to buy the fastest processor and max ram you can, the latter being important because you can’t upgrade it.  You can run multiple monitors on either platform.

 

I’m partial to the laptop since they stopped making high performance IMacs.  When it comes time for me to upgrade I’ll likely buy the fully featured 16” MBP because portability is valuable.  I think Apple makes the best laptop you can buy in terms of quality of manufacture and stability, I ran a 2015 MBP full time until two years ago, so you get longevity as well.

Edited September 13 by Jeff Prince

[MMGD]

14 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:

The MacBook Pro or Studio are your primary choices.  The graphics are built into apple’s chip now.  Seems everybody say to buy the fastest processor and max ram you can, the latter being important because you can’t upgrade it.  You can run multiple monitors on either platform.

 

I’m partial to the laptop since they stopped making high performance IMacs.  When it comes time for me to upgrade I’ll likely buy the fully featured 16” MBP because portability is valuable.  I think Apple makes the best laptop you can buy in terms of quality of manufacture and stability, I ran a 2015 MBP full time until two years ago, so you get longevity as well.

Thanks Jeff appreciated. 
Would you actually go for a laptop over a desk top? A friend (engineer) was selling the virtues of Apple over pc which got me exploring Apple. I use iPhone and iPad Pro already. Syncing files and photos over one drive. 
from what you say the studio is better than the iMac for VW landmark?

[Jeff Prince]

Sadly, the current iMac is not powerful enough to use Vectorworks and other graphics programs due to the 24GB RAM limit and 24” screen.  The previous generation imac with 27” screen is really nice because you could upgrade the RAM and get a fast processor (for the time).

 

Choosing a laptop over a Studio is more of a person choice given how powerful the laptops are now.  Plus, they come with a screen 🙂. You can’t go wrong with either.

 

if you want a low cost alternative to try out before you drop 5K on a computer, something like this is a great value: https://theapplexchange.com/collections/macbooks/products/2019-16-touch-bar-macbook-pro-2-4ghz-eight-core-i9-processor-64gb-ram-1tb-ssd-radeon-pro

Edited September 14 by Jeff Prince

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I completely agree with going Mac all the way.   Don't get too hung up on RAM.  Unified RAM behaves differently as in you need less, but you cannot add more.  I only have 18 GB on my current M3 Laptop.  If I buy the M4, I will add an extra 16.  It really depends on what you plan to do in the next few years.

 

But, If you like the concept of the older 27 inch iMac with the ability to add RAM, buy a late model and put in a 2 TB solid state hard drive.  The speed increase is quite significant.

[rDesign]

@MMGD But do not get any Mac with the minimum 8GB RAM. As evidenced by multiple threads on the forum, you will be very disappointed with how Vw performs with that level RAM. With unified RAM, more is still better (despite Apple’s claims), especially when it comes to Vw.

[michaelk]

3 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:

if you want a low cost alternative to try out before you drop 5K on a computer, something like this is a great value: https://theapplexchange.com/collections/macbooks/products/2019-16-touch-bar-macbook-pro-2-4ghz-eight-core-i9-processor-64gb-ram-1tb-ssd-radeon-pro

 

I used (and still own) that computer for years.  And I had the equivalent i7 before that.  I'm not convinced that the i9 is better for VW than the i7.  And the i9 had serious heat issues.  The fans were on full tilt boogie all the time.

 

My current M2 Max is the best computer I've ever owned.  It handles 1GB+ VW files with ease. Battery lasts forever.  Only heard the fans turn on 4 times in a year and a half.

 

And you're right Jeff:  that 2015 MBP was great!  Fantastic keyboard.  I used mine forever.

[Jeff Prince]

2 minutes ago, michaelk said:

And you're right Jeff:  that 2015 MBP was great!  Fantastic keyboard.  I used mine forever.

I sold mine this year and instantly regretted it.

[michaelk]

Mine is still kicking if you want to buy another one 🙂 

[MMGD]

19 hours ago, rDesign said:

@MMGD But do not get any Mac with the minimum 8GB RAM. As evidenced by multiple threads on the forum, you will be very disappointed with how Vw performs with that level RAM. With unified RAM, more is still better (despite Apple’s claims), especially when it comes to Vw.

Thank you for your advice.  Yes I’ve been reading the threads on here that 32GB unified RAM best as a minimum for as much longevity as possible. 64 unified best? From what I can tell anyway the MBP M3 max goes to 36GB unified.

 

Looking at

MBP M3 Pro 16", 12-CPU, 18-GPU, 36 unified for £3k

or

MBP M3 Max 14", 12-CPU, 18-GPU, 36 unified for £3k (or an extra £600 for 16").

 

Trying to work difference between MB Pro vs Max?!

 

I have  a good BenQ monitor so looking to link to that before investing in Apple monitor?

 

I've found a 16" MB M3 Max refurbished on apple store for £3059, saving of £540.  Worth it?

Edited September 15 by MMGD

[MMGD]

20 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:

Sadly, the current iMac is not powerful enough to use Vectorworks and other graphics programs due to the 24GB RAM limit and 24” screen.  The previous generation imac with 27” screen is really nice because you could upgrade the RAM and get a fast processor (for the time).

 

Choosing a laptop over a Studio is more of a person choice given how powerful the laptops are now.  Plus, they come with a screen 🙂. You can’t go wrong with either.

 

if you want a low cost alternative to try out before you drop 5K on a computer, something like this is a great value: https://theapplexchange.com/collections/macbooks/products/2019-16-touch-bar-macbook-pro-2-4ghz-eight-core-i9-processor-64gb-ram-1tb-ssd-radeon-pro

Thanks for this  Great idea to try exchange. The website you mention is US. I’m in the UK. I've just had a look at Apple's refurbished deals and they only go as far back as 2020. https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/refurbished/mac  Are there any models on there you'd recommend? Am I right in thinking that if it has 64 GB RAM that is equivalent to the 'unified' RAM or am I oversimplifying?!

 

 

 

Edited September 15 by MMGD

[rDesign]

Others with direct experience using M-series Macs can weigh in — I’m still using my 2017 MacBook Pro (though probably for not much longer).
 

Take a look at the KB article on Vw2025 System Recommendations, it offers some general guidance on recommended RAM amounts based on the types of projects you anticipate doing in Vw, and also whether you will be using external / multiple 4K monitors.

Edited September 15 by rDesign

[MMGD]

21 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:

Sadly, the current iMac is not powerful enough to use Vectorworks and other graphics programs due to the 24GB RAM limit and 24” screen.  The previous generation imac with 27” screen is really nice because you could upgrade the RAM and get a fast processor (for the time).

 

Choosing a laptop over a Studio is more of a person choice given how powerful the laptops are now.  Plus, they come with a screen 🙂. You can’t go wrong with either.

 

if you want a low cost alternative to try out before you drop 5K on a computer, something like this is a great value: https://theapplexchange.com/collections/macbooks/products/2019-16-touch-bar-macbook-pro-2-4ghz-eight-core-i9-processor-64gb-ram-1tb-ssd-radeon-pro

Thanks. Yes I have seen the KB vw 25 requirements. I’m a garden designer but getting increasingly larger projects. And now preferring to do concept 3d Visuals in VW rather than outsourcing to Lumion etc. I may delve into TM at some point. But generally prefer a sketchy look (shaded) than photorealistic options. Sorry I’ve ended up misquoting on reply. 
 

my current pc is MSI as suggested by my IT support. It’s so noisy when the fans get going. It’s only 2 years old but will pass on to my coworker / assistant when I get a new one. 

Edited September 15 by MMGD

[line-weight]

My strategy has been for a while to buy macs second hand. The price you pay can be significantly less than what you'd pay new, but macs tend to be pretty reliable and keep on going for quite a long time, so my perception is that paying the premium for new is not necessary.

 

Don't dismiss the mac mini. Obviously it depends what you want to do in Vectorworks but unless you want to do a lot of rendering, a fairly modestly specced mac will be perfectly capable.

 

I'm still running fine on one of the first generation M1 minis. 16GB of RAM. I work with 3 monitors. I do, sometimes, run into memory issues but only when dealing with unusually (for me) large files and doing certain operations. Day to day, navigating around quite complex models in shaded view works completely smoothly. I don't think I've ever noticed any significant fan noise coming from it (I have with earlier mac minis). For sure, when I next replace the computer I'll be aiming for quite a bit more RAM but at the moment the memory issues are more of an annoyance than a major issue.

 

On the question of desktop vs laptop, isn't it the case that you pay quite a high premium for that portability, for similar specs? As I already have my monitors & keyboard etc and work in such a way that my setup isn't really portable anyway, I tend to stick to the desktop path. An option worth considering is the combination of a mini/studio with an ipad. I've been considering getting an ipad pro to let me be more portable, that could also function as an extra screen/drawing tablet while at my desk.

Edited September 15 by line-weight