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I think it depends on how you define collaborate and what your expectations are.  I routinely import Revit bldgs for reference in my site, but I am not fooling with the bldgs themselves.  I imagine workflows of interior designers or various engineering disciplines working in Vectorworks with a Revit architect would have particular challenge truly collaborating on a “live” model, but I could be wrong.

 

My workflow is to create a reference file to hold the Revit import and then reference that into my site model.  Subsequent updates to the architectural model is then easy to update.  My work heading to architects for collab generally stay within the dwg and pdf realm instead of IFC, etc workflows.

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Hello @PatStanford

 

yes I have some recommendations and suggestions.

 

a good BEP helps.

 

But the main issue is the Revit user themselves.

 

if they know what they are doing with Revit and can give and receive IFC, it is fairly straightforward.

 

like model setup there are rules when it comes to IFC and these should be defined in the BEP.

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2 hours ago, shorter said:

Hello @PatStanford

 

yes I have some recommendations and suggestions.

 

a good BEP helps.

 

But the main issue is the Revit user themselves.

 

if they know what they are doing with Revit and can give and receive IFC, it is fairly straightforward.

 

like model setup there are rules when it comes to IFC and these should be defined in the BEP.

The reading I did earlier indicates getting up to speed with IFC is a key must do.

I have a lot of work to do.

 

🙂

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You need to establish very clear aims.

What are you sharing information for? What do you really need to share in order to coordinate the design? Are you simply contributing to the set of 2-D drawings? Or are you actively engaged in a 3-D coordination process? Arguably unless there is a need to share in 3-D you don’t need to build a model to coordinate the design. You do though need coordinated 2D data and this means coordinated with the model as well as coordinated with all other 2D information.

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3 hours ago, ParkerJames said:

The reading I did earlier indicates getting up to speed with IFC is a key must do.

I have a lot of work to do.

 

🙂

I think you need to consider @shorter’s advice before diving into IFC.  Define the design process and deliverables before learning and deploying tools.

 

I have many Revit clients who can architect well, but have no understanding of IFC.  They really don’t need to when they operate within the comfortable bubble Revit provides.

 

I investigated IFC to initiate some file exchanges.  In the end, the clients would not or could not produce usable outputs in that format, so we either import Revit directly or use a more traditional 2D dwg exchange.  But I’m a landscape architect, so that is sufficient for me.  As a consultant to architects, I can suggest formats that may be helpful for me, but I ultimately happily accept whatever is easiest for them… they are the client after all.

 

Sadly, for buildings with fairly simple architecture, I can usually mock them up from PDFs faster than Vectorworks can import them.  Something to consider as you balance the marketing promises of what Vectorworks “can” do and what is a profitable workflow.

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A key thing to remember with IFC is that it has a specific purpose and does not behave like native software when imported into Revit, vectorworks or any other Bim software.

 

To start with it contains little or no 2D data.

 

this means unlike DWG you cannot import an IFC and produce a (traditional) drawing.

 

A lot of line work often goes into making the drawing legible and complete in Revit (and Vectorworks) - Grids etc - and therefore you need to also request to the DWG data from model space to be able to use this for coordination in addition to IFC.

 

A lot of 2D data that might ordinarily be part of a 3D object like a door swing can go missing or be reinterpreted in the recipient software.

 

to think that you are sharing IFC in order to a, produce a set of drawings or b, see the 2D content visible in native software is naive but it’s amazing how many times Revit and Vectorworks users complain that they are not able to produce a drawing with a sheet and annotation etc from an IFC.  I had one express astonishment that the ubiquitous ’splash screen’ in Revit was omitted from the IFC. I nearly choked on my lunch that day.

Edited by shorter
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Next installment of the VW > Revit discussion...  I feel like Charles Dickens.

 

ALL MODELS MUST HAVE A COMMON ORIGIN!!!

 

and by this I mean that all models (and when I say ‘all models’ I mean models from vw, rvt, SKP, 3dm, etc) must be aligned to the same internal origin BEFORE you apply any user origins, project base points or any other applied coordinate system.

 

if your internal origins are not aligned and are not in the same place relative to the model YOU ARE NOT COORDINATED irrespective of the ‘shared coordinate system’.

 

In order to do this you must not use the recommended DWG import settings in Vectorworks.  You must manage the process, set you user origin manually, and create a template for the project.

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27 minutes ago, shorter said:

Next installment of the VW > Revit discussion...  I feel like Charles Dickens.

 

ALL MODELS MUST HAVE A COMMON ORIGIN!!!

 

and by this I mean that all models (and when I say ‘all models’ I mean models from vw, rvt, SKP, 3dm, etc) must be aligned to the same internal origin BEFORE you apply any user origins, project base points or any other applied coordinate system.

 

if your internal origins are not aligned and are not in the same place relative to the model YOU ARE NOT COORDINATED irrespective of the ‘shared coordinate system’.

 

In order to do this you must not use the recommended DWG import settings in Vectorworks.  You must manage the process, set you user origin manually, and create a template for the project.

Can you say that in English?

What means 'models' and what means origin in that context?

🙂

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Do you know where the internal origin is in Vectorworks?

 

This chap...

 

 

1169822264_Screenshot2022-01-20at23_35_37.png.b5e530ce1ef706db1619ad9eb8b457fc.png

 

It's the centre of the model, where X, Y and Z are 0.

 

Revit has one.  So does SketchUp.  And so does Rhino.

 

In order to fully coordinate your Vectorworks model with someone using Revit, first make sure your origin and their origin are in the same place relative to the model itself.

 

Model = 3D data either solids, NURBS or BIM.  Matters not.  Any 3D data = model.

 

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12 hours ago, shorter said:

Do you know where the internal origin is in Vectorworks?

 

This chap...

 

 

1169822264_Screenshot2022-01-20at23_35_37.png.b5e530ce1ef706db1619ad9eb8b457fc.png

 

It's the centre of the model, where X, Y and Z are 0.

 

Revit has one.  So does SketchUp.  And so does Rhino.

 

In order to fully coordinate your Vectorworks model with someone using Revit, first make sure your origin and their origin are in the same place relative to the model itself.

 

Model = 3D data either solids, NURBS or BIM.  Matters not.  Any 3D data = model.

 

Yes, I grok. Thank you very much, shorter.

Very helpful.

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  • 1 year later...
On 1/20/2022 at 11:40 PM, shorter said:

Do you know where the internal origin is in Vectorworks?

 

This chap...

 

 

1169822264_Screenshot2022-01-20at23_35_37.png.b5e530ce1ef706db1619ad9eb8b457fc.png

 

It's the centre of the model, where X, Y and Z are 0.

 

Revit has one.  So does SketchUp.  And so does Rhino.

 

In order to fully coordinate your Vectorworks model with someone using Revit, first make sure your origin and their origin are in the same place relative to the model itself.

 

Model = 3D data either solids, NURBS or BIM.  Matters not.  Any 3D data = model.

 

 

I should add here that in the context of this thread, model = 3D file.  In the context of CAD generally, of which BIM is a subset, Model = 2D or 3D, i.e. modelspace and the location of the origin is equally critical in a 2D workflow as it is a 3D workflow since the two are intrinsically linked.

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  • 9 months later...
On 1/20/2022 at 11:40 PM, shorter said:

In order to fully coordinate your Vectorworks model with someone using Revit, first make sure your origin and their origin are in the same place relative to the model itself.

 

^ What Mr Shorter says. 

 

I suggest your aim should be to agree the basic elements of 'transfer/process' before you even start the project. Don't make any assumptions that you will match expectations back/forth  - have it in writing (BIM Manual or similar to outline application) if a contract depends on it. You'll then iron-out the pitfalls.

 

You can always swop simple files back and forth before you dive into the details. You'll find various posts here that have the 'drawing' working fine but stumble over incompatible font choice(s).

 

 

 

 

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there is a process called 'proof of concept' that must be carried out before any meaningful exchange of data, even in 2D.

 

Write the following (or similar) into the project BEP...

 

"Proof of Concept stage (aka Coordination Testing Stage)

 

As good practice, ensure these procedures are followed, and that a coordination test is carried out before any modelling commences:

 

1.    All models shall be built from fresh template files.
2.    Do not use ‘Save as’ to create a new model.
3.    Do not use models that have been upgraded from older software versions.  This is to avoid potential corruption due to the upgrade process or from previous modelling processes and configurations.
4.    Following the setting up of the discipline model, either via incorporation of the coordinating DWG, RVT or IFC file issued by the Architect, test models shall be shared according to the procedures and processes outlined in this BEP and the accompanying documentation.
5.    Do not commence any modelling until a coordination test has been carried out and signed off by the Architect and Project BIM Manager. The test will be successful when models from all consultants have been shown to align without editing to Internal Origins and Shared (i.e. Site) XY Coordinates, and thus they can be linked, referenced, or imported by Internal Origin as well as Shared Coordinates."

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1 hour ago, Laura Stone said:

Bit of a bump here but do you know which of Revit's origins is the one that needs to align?  As far as I know there is a project base point, a survey point and an internal origin and they may not be aligned with each other.

 

It is good practice to align all three at the start of the project.  The critical point is the internal origin.  Ideally this would be aligned to the PBP and Survey Point.  If the Revit users want to change the location of the PBP after, it will have no impact on coordination as the PBP is peculiar to revit.

 

However, make sure the PBP does not set a faux level unless agreed.

 

Models must be built at the same level relative to the internal origin and a level should not be applied to the PBP in Revit unless agreed (e.g. when the buulding is up a mountain, you establish a common datum and agree that ground floor FFL = 0m in the model = 1000m AOD.

 

It is possible to cheat and issue a model that counteracts the effects of a faux level applied at the PBP if one is applied without agreement but it's not ideal.

 

We often end up creating multiple models to issue to different consultants because they do not know where their origin is and it's too late to do anything about it.

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Thanks for all this, a new one for me I've been given a survey in Revit and everyone else is working Revit so I have to tie in with them rather than vice versa (Revit-centric BEP was already written). So I got the Architect to move the project base point to the internal origin/survey point because previously I only had co-ords for the PBP and no way of knowing where it was!  So now I have the georeferencing and co-ords set up, but when I tried with the angle to true north shown in georeferencing it went very wrong. What I ended up doing was rotating the drawing north with the same internal origin and am hoping that will make my exports match up.  Still a bit of work to do before i get to that point.

image002.png

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