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6 hours ago, line-weight said:

This is basically what Twinmotion is, I think?

 

Indeed. Unreal has a very similar place in the workflow.

 

In fact Twinmotion is made in Unreal - it's essentially a video game that lets you import your models, insert library objects & lighting, and walk around in your scene, etc. It's sort of like a simplified pre-packaged version of Unreal in an architecture-focused interface.

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On 12/20/2021 at 8:53 PM, digitalcarbon said:

 

lags, delays, yearly upgrade anxiety, OS upgrades, Hardware upgrades...tired tired tired...

 

 

Upgrade anxiety is real.  I didn't end up using VW21 because of file conversion issues which would have taken hours to fix.  

It's basically subscription based at this point.  Could updates be inched along via SP as opposed to larger changes yearly?

 

 

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I always think, why to play with Twinmotion if the real essence is Unreal Engine.

 

But it is so hard to get into it.

I have CAD and 3D experience, but Unreal is a Monster and a completely different world.

While UE5 now looks more like an App now (similar to Blender before and with 2.4)

I still don't get what it wants from me.

Tried to open 100GB Ancient Valley demo and downloaded over night.

Will open and it said it needs MS Visual Studio. OK. 2 hours later bar is still at 100% (!?)

and waiting. Cancelled it and now MS started downloading VS.

Tried to open Ancient Valley again, it said I miss a plug-in.

Gave up.

Opened UE again, opened Ancient Valley and it just opened (!?)

Can't see how to switch to one of the Cameras or to do anything useful.

Space Mouse Enterprise does zoom only. (Activating other Axes does not change anything)

 

Far above my pay grade, for now I will get back to Twinmotion ...

Edited by zoomer
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  • 3 weeks later...

maybe...but does not the mechanical cad world, at least some of it, work by sending models to the fabricator?

They are always asking me for the final model.  Of course, I never had that happen with architecture.

 

My office has both mechanical and architectural running side by side...I'm seeing quite a difference in the two depts...

Edited by digitalcarbon
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This is all likely a "march of technology" situation. Automotive and aerospace designers had computer aided design and manufacturing tools in the late 1950s and 60s (eg Search Pierre Bezier), with early robotics prior to that.  By 1980s, some Arch/LA designers employed CAD specialists, but many still worked with mylar and parallel bars.  Most builders had not adopted CAD.  In graphics, paper design persisted with a few adopting Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.  Ten years later, most Arch/LA designers, small and large had CAD. Many builders, too, at least in the admin/bidding departments of larger firms.  In graphics and publishing, well, Desk-Top-Publishing happened, and EVERYONE had some form of CAD (amazing what can be done with MS Office and equiv, let alone PS, Illustrator, and loads of lower cost/free/ cloud options.  These days, almost every designer in any field and almost every fabricator/builder/design client has some access to and skill with some form of CAD.

 

@PatStanford stated it completely correctly about models and data rich models - liability exposure is deep. At least at this time.

 

But looking at the arc of the AEC, graphics and other design endeavors, it seems that models, complete with fly/walk through and build instruction are already here for early adopters and not too far away for many or most others.  The skill set and software capabilities are not static.  They will invade homes, permit desks, workplaces, . . .

People get ready.

There's a train a'comin'.

 

-B

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On 1/8/2022 at 9:06 PM, Pat Stanford said:

Possible scenario.  Architect issues as model instead of construction drawing.  Builder "measures" off that model, but somehow gets the wrong dimension (maybe dimension snaps to center line of wall instead of outside of framing). Building gets framed using the wrong dimension.

 

In todays real world this is a very likely and very unfortunate outcome.  The lawyers will make far more off this kind of mistake than the designer or builder will ever be paid.

But is it likely? Sounds like a cut and dry case of user error to me. If the model is correct then the builder is highly unlikely to take legal action on the basis that they screwed up a measurement.

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Most architects have a standard note on their drawings telling contractors not to scale directly off the drawing, for good reasons. It's already possible for errors to occur this way on 2d drawings, and so I don't see why you couldn't have the same principle on a 3d model - refer only to explicitly stated dimensions and take the model as a general indication of how things are arranged rather than assuming every last dimension is accurate enough for construction purposes.

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5 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

then let every trade access the model to get the information they need.

yep...

I know that can't happen now but the fabricators always asks for the complete fabrication (stainless steel & HDPE) model...Onshape/Solidworks

 

But no AEC entity has ever really asked for the model of the site...I do get the value of a set of prints on site.

 

The civil people have asked for a 3d model (AutoCAD Civil 3d) and have imported the model fine but they have no VGM nor 3d nav experience so they get this wire frame model that they cannot deal with...(I did a screen share with one of them) 

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On 1/12/2022 at 2:19 AM, line-weight said:

Most architects have a standard note on their drawings telling contractors not to scale directly off the drawing, for good reasons. It's already possible for errors to occur this way on 2d drawings, and so I don't see why you couldn't have the same principle on a 3d model - refer only to explicitly stated dimensions and take the model as a general indication of how things are arranged rather than assuming every last dimension is accurate enough for construction purposes.

In my experience that note generally continues on along the lines of "written dimensions supersede scaled dimensions"

3D models and animations are great for the design and selling. But 50-70% of the work I did in the office was documenting the design. Professors and Principals stressed hierarchy of notes, dimensions, lines. Even with a perfect model, a designer will have to provide insight on what aspects of the design are most important, and where there is flexibility to absorb the imperfections of the real world and construction processes.

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On 1/12/2022 at 9:19 AM, line-weight said:

Most architects have a standard note on their drawings telling contractors not to scale directly off the drawing, for good reasons. It's already possible for errors to occur this way on 2d drawings, and so I don't see why you couldn't have the same principle on a 3d model - refer only to explicitly stated dimensions and take the model as a general indication of how things are arranged rather than assuming every last dimension is accurate enough for construction purposes.

I agree.

I think there will always be issues attempting to create dimensionally accurate models of existing architecture unless the buildings are very new + exceptionally precisely-built. If using the VW BIM tools the model you create will always only be an approximation/interpretation of the existing conditions so care needs to be taken when presenting the model or drawings derived from it to contractors, or indeed when designing/modelling new elements within the model yourself. Things get levelled out, straightened off, smoothed over, etc because of the constraints of the BIM tools + as a result of trying to get the model come together satisfactorily. If you are designing a brand new standalone building then fine, but if you are working with existing architecture BIM modelling comes with caveats. There’s no doubt a full BIM model is an incredibly powerful + useful thing to have but for all its benefits isn’t necessarily going to possess 100% dimensional accuracy. Ironically, in some respects it’s easier to achieve dimensionally accurate drawings if you don’t produce a 3D model + create the drawings directly in 2D instead. This all depends of course on the degree of idiosyncrasy in the building + the degree of precision involved in the features you’re designing but it’s definitely something I am very aware of in my work dealing primarily with older buildings.

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Even with a brand new building ... with a theoretically perfect BIM model ... there will be inaccuracies in what actually gets built, and that's why it's so important for dimensioning always to be relative to the appropriate reference points.

 

The structural frame gets built with one column 50mm out ... there will be certain critical things that need to be set out relative to that column, and if you measure from the "as built" column position you'll be ok, but if you measure from some other part of the building, you'll be 50mm away from where the thing actually needs to be.

 

Same basic principle applies whether the 'model' is in 3d or 2d.

 

Architecture (and I guess civil engineering to some extent?) is quite different from things like product manufacture in this way ... there is a different expectation of precision, and i think people from other disciplines don't always realise this.

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16 hours ago, line-weight said:

Even with a brand new building ... with a theoretically perfect BIM model ... there will be inaccuracies in what actually gets built, and that's why it's so important for dimensioning always to be relative to the appropriate reference points.

 

The structural frame gets built with one column 50mm out ... there will be certain critical things that need to be set out relative to that column, and if you measure from the "as built" column position you'll be ok, but if you measure from some other part of the building, you'll be 50mm away from where the thing actually needs to be.

 

Same basic principle applies whether the 'model' is in 3d or 2d.

 

Architecture (and I guess civil engineering to some extent?) is quite different from things like product manufacture in this way ... there is a different expectation of precision, and i think people from other disciplines don't always realise this.

 

That’s absolutely true but you’re talking about accepting different levels of precision/tolerance which applies to everything to different degrees. The model in your case is still correct, the design just needs to build-in a reasonable degree of tolerance so that subsequent features don’t rely on that column being positioned millimeter perfect, and that it being out by an inch or two is factored-in when it comes to sizing the kitchen or whatever that’s being placed next to it. The model is still the reference point from which the on-site construction is measured. I’m talking about circumstances where the model cannot be used as a reliable source of reference in the same way, even at design stage where you have to remember that what you’ve modelled is an interpretation of the real conditions + dimension-critical things like kitchens, bathrooms, fitted joinery, etc need to be sized based on the survey dimensions rather than the model dimensions. 

 

Once VW has a ‘Convert Point Cloud to BIM Model’ button + the wall/slab/roof tools are sophisticated enough to allow us to model things as they actually are then this won’t be such an issue of course 🙂

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3 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

That’s absolutely true but you’re talking about accepting different levels of precision/tolerance which applies to everything to different degrees. The model in your case is still correct, the design just needs to build-in a reasonable degree of tolerance so that subsequent features don’t rely on that column being positioned millimeter perfect, and that it being out by an inch or two is factored-in when it comes to sizing the kitchen or whatever that’s being placed next to it. The model is still the reference point from which the on-site construction is measured. I’m talking about circumstances where the model cannot be used as a reliable source of reference in the same way, even at design stage where you have to remember that what you’ve modelled is an interpretation of the real conditions + dimension-critical things like kitchens, bathrooms, fitted joinery, etc need to be sized based on the survey dimensions rather than the model dimensions. 

 

Once VW has a ‘Convert Point Cloud to BIM Model’ button + the wall/slab/roof tools are sophisticated enough to allow us to model things as they actually are then this won’t be such an issue of course 🙂

 

Yes sure - I get what you are saying. The problem you describe is additional to the one I describe.

 

But each case is covered by sensible annotation - additional information that can't really be contained in the drawing geometry itself. So, that's why I find it hard to see a world where everyone can simply scale off a model. But perhaps ways of annotating the model in 3d space will develop...perhaps I can ask an element for its dimensional setting-out information and it will tell me what it should be set out relative to.

 

I'd be quite pleased to see the need for 2d sheets disappear (I think).

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