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Referenced DLVPs not fit for purpose


Tom W.

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I have been using referenced DLVPs to 'import' building models from individual source files into a main site model file. I think I always find that something gets lost in translation but can generally get around it somehow. For example I've found that certain Roof components often decide to ignore their offsets + in the target file I'll notice that the rafter component is projecting out beyond the building edge instead of being contained within it. In such a case I can just make the rafter class invisible + unless I'm wanting to take a section through the building can live with this. However today I am finding that in the DLVP in the target file my wall clipping is being ignored + some of my doors aren't displaying properly.

 

The original model in the source file:

547416941_Screenshot2021-12-16at06_36_55.thumb.png.1fe96f821dc2726cad9576efda6def30.png

 

The model as displayed as a referenced DLVP in the site model file:

1096950538_Screenshot2021-12-16at06_23_54.thumb.png.093edff8a21ca92452bbaa448cc0a75b.png

 

I will send this to Tech Support or file a bug but I just wondered what other people's experiences were? I know others have recommended using Layer Import Referencing instead of referenced DLVPs + this is what I'm going to try now, but the reasons in that discussion were more to do with being able to more easily control layer/class visibility rather than geometry being mistranslated. Are there any tricks to prevent this happening or do I just give up on DLVPs + move over to Layer Import Referencing instead + hope that works better?

 

Actually as I write this I think I remember what I describe above happening in another file + the way I got around it was to create duplicate walls layers in the source file where I manually brought the height of the walls down below the roof level so that they looked correct in external views (but not in section views) + treated these as special 'DLVP' layers that I only turned on in the site model file. Bit of a faff though. And doesn't help me with the doors which are rendering white. These particular doors use a custom leaf symbol so it must be something to do with that. The other doors which just use a standard leaf created within the tool display fine.

 

Bit annoying...

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Of all the things in Vectorworks that have caused me problems over the years, WGR is at the top of the list, way out ahead of everything else. I try to avoid them if at all possible.

 

Could your rafter problem be something to do with a wrong storey/level setup in one of the files?

 

You could try Layer Import method but that has its own set of problems and limitations. But trying it might also help you identify fixable problems with your DLVP set up.

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Thanks @Christiaan I am not using workgroups as such: these are four or five files all in the same folder on the same computer - not sure if that makes a difference? And I am not using storys/levels, just layers. My gut feeling is it's as much to do with roof/roof face objects as it is DLVPs/referencing as I seem to have all sorts of problems with roofs generally (components misbehaving, clipping suddenly failing, etc). Doesn't explain the door issue but then I have had issues with door textures as well, again nothing to do with DLVPs/referencing (I can only get the texture on door hardware to display if the texture is applied by class, whereas it seems to me, being only a 3D symbol, you should be able to assign a texture to the geometry by object or via a Material + it still show up within the PIO but it doesn't). Perhaps something about Referenced DLVPs brings out preexisting issues lurking just beneath the surface...?

 

Perhaps I should try putting the building models + the site model all in one file then put all the sheet layers in another file, which is what you suggested somewhere else I think... As well as the layer import method... Lots of options to try but all quite time consuming...

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7 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I am not using workgroups as such: these are four or five files all in the same folder on the same computer - not sure if that makes a difference?

All these things can make a difference, including project sharing. The simpler your setup the easier it will be to narrow down the problem.

 

4 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

My gut feeling is it's as much to do with roof/roof face objects as it is DLVPs/referencing as I seem to have all sorts of problems with roofs generally (components misbehaving, clipping suddenly failing, etc).

Imagine your viewports take overnight to render and each time you render you find a new problem. This is where I found myself many years ago on a deadline for a large project. That couple of weeks took a few days off my life!

 

4 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Perhaps something about Referenced DLVPs brings out preexisting issues lurking just beneath the surface...?

Sounds very plausible.

 

4 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Perhaps I should try putting the building models + the site model all in one file then put all the sheet layers in another file, which is what you suggested somewhere else I think... As well as the layer import method... Lots of options to try but all quite time consuming...

Indeed.

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9 hours ago, Christiaan said:

All these things can make a difference, including project sharing. The simpler your setup the easier it will be to narrow down the problem.

 

I'm not really sure what my options are for troubleshooting. I have two files open at once: the source file + the target file. Can't get much simpler than that. The model looks one way (the correct way) in the source file + another way (the wrong way) in the target file. Short of resaving the source file + updating the reference in the target file I'm not sure what else one can do to try + reset things...? I'm pretty sure every single referenced DLVP I've ever created has had some discrepancy with it but normally I've been able to get around it somehow + carry on. The white doors above I can't disguise however so I've had to jump ship this time! I'll see what Tech Support say.

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It took 5 months but from Tech Support:

 

1729702397_Screenshot2022-05-21at17_41_02.thumb.png.1b6270985ce3940544b3d69657392c96.png

 

Because referenced DLVPs were proving so problematic in this project I switched to using Layer Import Referencing instead which I found to be much more reliable but even then not completely so + I'm still seeing the odd anomaly occurring...

 

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...such as:

 

143139130_Screenshot2022-05-22at11_19_05.thumb.png.37d72f4cf5cf381a85876e5bb535d5af.png

 

Roofs floating in space!

 

They are fine in the source files + have been fine in the target file for weeks, now all of a sudden decide to rise up by 20 odd metres. It is not the whole layer, just the Roof objects.

 

There are eight referenced-in models in the file + only two of them are displaying this behaviour. The other 6 are fine.

 

I have tried resetting the roofs in the source files + updating the references in the target file but to no effect. I've shut down VW + reopened + the same. I will now try rebooting the computer then deleting the references + re-importing them + see if that makes a difference…

 

Very frustrating. I had literally just finished this model + was about to start preparing the sheets + this happens.

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38 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I have tried resetting the roofs in the source files + updating the references in the target file but to no effect. I've shut down VW + reopened + the same. I will now try rebooting the computer then deleting the references + re-importing them + see if that makes a difference…

One other option might be to adjust the Story elevation in the target file? At least until they jumped back. Crude but might work.

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Am not using stories but because it is only the Roof object that's affected + not the other objects on the roof layer, if I edit the layer elevation in the source file it lowers things like the Ridge flashing, guttering, etc as well which are at the correct elevation + don't want moving. Plus I need the source files to be correct as well. I did try this to try + 'reset' things. Just very weird because everything was 100% fine yesterday + something I did since then obviously put VW in a sulk + it's stubbornly refusing to cheer up again! 

 

Troubleshooting is very slow because the references are uncached in the target file so reopening takes half an hour... Very tedious...

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Posted (edited)

Damn. You could try distilling a copy down to two files (original and target file) with only the affected objects, layers and classes included. Can be a useful way to narrow down variabilities and speed up trouble-shooting. You could post it here too so we can have a poke around.

Edited by Christiaan
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What I ended up doing was creating new versions of the two offending source files by copying + pasting the geometry into new documents + when I referenced these new files into the target file the Roofs displayed correctly. Hoorah. So the original files must have become corrupted somehow + the only thing was to start again... Hopefully I can knock some sheets off now before something else goes wrong...

 

326348140_Screenshot2022-05-23at16_02_32.thumb.png.add91df32459861cec131ab8ef505345.png

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I feel like I've experienced stuff like this - not necessarily with referenced files, but with files converted from a previous Vectorworks version. Somewhere, the height info for things like walls and roofs gets invisibly messed up, and copying&pasting into a different document may or may not produce the right result.

 

Eg

 

 

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I Have reported similar bug in Spotlight using DLVP for rotated truss angles.

DLVP would gain random Z elevation when opening file or During Publish.

Sent them a Video of Repeatable steps to reproduce back in 2018.

 

The bug still here.

 

Insert Surprise emoji ......

 

They added Truss Rotation as a feature instead of fixing this.

 

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