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Moving away from using Screen plane


Will

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I notice that Vectorworks have deprecated the screen plane. That's fine, I've always found it annoying. But I have templates with a lot of details and such in them that I would like to be able to disable the 'Enable legacy features' checkbox in and there always seem to be some screen plane objects in them somewhere. The reason I want to move to the new format is because I know in the future there will be a load of weird glitches and problems if I am still using features that vectorworks no longer want to provide and are trying to get rid of. So, a couple of questions:

  1. Is there a recommended workflow for converting older templates and symbol files to no longer use the screen plane?
  2. Do objects in symbols need to be moved to the symbol definition plane? Also has anyone else noticed that when you try to do this all the objects disappear, but if you click where they were they are still selectable?

Thanks

W

Edited by Will
Added explanation of why I want to do this.
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I am interested !

 

For manual repair you have to also check that Unified View = ON

and that there is no Saved View that uses Unified View = OFF

 

As far as I see, things like SLVP Crop Geometry

(previously always screenplane aligned)

get upgraded automatically when migrating the File to VW 2022.

 

It looks like all my migrated Template Files are "2D legacy features" free and clean.

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As for symbols, geometry in the 2D component (on the screen plane by default) is not counted in the error check for screen plane objects.  In fact, moving the screen plane objects inside the 2D component of the symbol to the Symbol Definition plane will move them to the 3D component of the symbol, which is probably not what you're looking for.

 

The best way to find any screen plane objects is to do the following:

  1. Make sure all classes and layers are visible.
  2. Set your View-Class Options setting to Show/Snap/Modify
  3. Set your View-Layer Options setting to Show/Snap/Modify
  4. Run Tools-Custom Selection
  5. Set it as Select Only, Execute Immediately
  6. Select your criteria to be Plane is Screen Plane and make sure all three options under Search within are unchecked.
  7. Press OK

This should find and select all objects that are set to the screen plane.  From here, you should have able to switch them over to Layer Plane through the Object Info Palette and then turn off the legacy feature.

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17 hours ago, Jesse Cogswell said:

The best way to find any screen plane objects is to do the following:

  1. Make sure all classes and layers are visible.
  2. Set your View-Class Options setting to Show/Snap/Modify
  3. Set your View-Layer Options setting to Show/Snap/Modify
  4. Run Tools-Custom Selection
  5. Set it as Select Only, Execute Immediately
  6. Select your criteria to be Plane is Screen Plane and make sure all three options under Search within are unchecked.
  7. Press OK

This should find and select all objects that are set to the screen plane.  From here, you should have able to switch them over to Layer Plane through the Object Info Palette and then turn off the legacy feature.

 

 

No chance here ....

It finds thousands of screen plane objects but does not select them,

so I can't switch them.

I tried to switch options in custom search ON/OFF selectively already.

No Selection.

 

I deleted all Saved Views "preserve Unified View" in their Settings too.

Also VW mocks about VP Annotations being Screen Plane.

But I do not find any SP Annotations in my SLVPs.

 

Maybe in DLVPs ?

I think it is mainly about the referenced 2D underlay VWX from clients.

But even when I open that file and try everything - I don't get 2D legacy away.

 

I could select some individual screen plane objects there by Magic Wand in Plane Mode

and switch these. But for me it looks like anything in hierarchic Groups is not accessible

for Plane Mode switching - and there are a lot of groups in use .....

 

 

And it looks like I can't even reliably switch DLVP Crops to Layer Plane.

They will switch back to Screen Plane when I select them again ....

Edited by zoomer
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  • 1 month later...
On 12/10/2021 at 1:04 AM, Tom W. said:

There is now an 'Align Working Plane with Current View Button' on the View bar which allows you to draw a rectangle or whatever in a 3D view on the design layer to define the crop for a 3D viewport.

How does this effect simple 2D linework on a DL? I have not tested in VW2022.

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If you are doing all 2D it has no real impact.  You can draw on the Layer Plane and look at it in Top or Top/Plan and it will all look just like if you drew in Screen Plane.

 

The biggest difference is when you are doing a combination of 2D and 3D.  

 

With Screen Plane you could put a label and then use the Flyover tool to move the model and have the label stay oriented to the screen.

 

Now you can set the model to the view you want and set a working plane parallel to the screen to put the label on.  But if you decide you don't like the view and move it the label will move too.

 

Symbols and PIOs still have the ability to have different views in 3D and Top/Plan, you just set the Top/Plan setting a little differently.

 

I'm sure this will break some workflows, but IMNSHO, it is going to allow VW to clean up a lot under the hood and make the program better and more stable moving forward.

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That all sounds pretty promising Pat! One thing Ive often wondered is can I draw some items in 2d and others in 3d? I know the answer is yes, but there is a follow up.

Is there a way to then use that 3d geometry on a design layer by rotating it to, say get a front, side view, or Iso on another saved view sheet(wo a viewport)?

 

An example might be a shelter placed in a fenced compound. The site plan is all drawn in 2d. the shelter 3D, but all on the same design layer. The I have another page as a saved view and it has your shelter front top and side views of the shelter, but accomplished thru rotating the object itself not the camera view or viewports per say? Ive toyed with this idea but Im not sure it actually works? I need more VW users in Cleveland! 😐

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If you site is "2D" (everything is actually 3D now, so 2D is just a planar object that sits on some layer or working plane) I would have that site drawn on the Layer Plane.

 

Your 3D structure sitting on that site would have its Z zero position at the layer plane also.

 

If you then go to a Front (or any side view) the site will effectively display as a line (or bunch of lines) at the Z=0 position in the view.

 

I can't figure out what you are talking about by moving the shelter. Leave it where it is and use VW ability to look at it from different views.

 

If you move the shelter you either have to go back and move it every time you want to look at a different view, or you have to create multiple copies and then control which one you see.

 

What are you really hoping to accomplish?

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The idea is the shelter is shown on the overall site plan if we're using generic terms. Then you might have another saved view that would be like another page for us where many use sheet views we use saved views. There you would see elevations and callouts about the shelter in its various views, the views would just be generated by the same 3d modeled shelter on the A-1, copied, then placed on a design layer on say a Saved view S-1. I could then rotate the object(shelter) around its x,y.z axis to give the view I want. Duplicate the shelter and rotate again for each view desired. This would be for a set of construction drawing CDs.

 

It's more of a conceptual idea to integrate 3d components where we could even tho we mostly work in 2d without using viewports, especially if the shelter were to be a symbol that may morph as we work ahead.

The rationality for this thought is often our equipment configurations are ever changing and maybe working this way would allow us to update views as we are forced to move forward with unknowns, but the office as a whole prefer to stay away from viewports,  which I would guess is probably the recommended workflow most would suggest, but you cant blame someone for trying to find a workflow that suites their exact needs.

 

You will have to forgive me. I have high regard for VW and many years working with it. I simply only know what I know, and there is still a lot I don't know about VW! 

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IMNSHO you are fighting yourself in not wanting to use VPs.

 

You don't have to use them the way VW suggests, but I think they are still the best way to get your final output.

 

Think about this option.

 

1 Design Layer for your model.

1 design layer for each of your "elevation" views.

 

Make your model however you want.  Switch to a Front view.

 

Switch to the "elevation" layer for Front. Click the button to set the working plane equal to the screen.  Draw whatever annotations you want on that plane. As long as you go back to the same view they will effectively act as "screen plane" similar objects.

 

Set a Saved View

 

Create a viewport on a sheet layer. Put your title block and any other 1:1 type items on the Sheet Layer. If you need or want to change the scale, just change the scale in the viewport. It will get bigger or smaller without effecting the paper size.

 

You can put multiple Viewports on a single sheet layer, even at different scales. So for me, composting your details onto a sheet layer this way is much easier.

 

And you never had think about using the Annotation Group. You will probably have to crop to get just the portion of the model you want to display.

 

And you can still use Saved Views to get to and from both the DL and SLs.

 

 

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I think I follow what you are saying. Id like to send you a file of ours in a pm just so you can have a better idea of what I say when I say we utilized saved views in the way sheet layers are used. When I publish its saved Views T-1 thru whatever. There are not sheet views. However I think like you said there may be a way to do a little bit of 3d where it matters.

 

Im going to experiment with this idea. and see how far I get.

 

A few questions of course.

 

1. Where would I put the 2D linework? Another DL with 1:1?

 

In short it sounds like in general you can draw 2D or 3D in DL and then use that as a viewport. The modeled items would then update across all viewports if we were to use sheet views. 

 

2. We usually referencing in the legacy way which is pic a file and the design layers you want maybe leaving a few DL referenced for global updates.

 

I put a few more direct questions below next to the specific statements to make it more easy to read.

 

1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

IMNSHO you are fighting yourself in not wanting to use VPs.

 

You don't have to use them the way VW suggests, but I think they are still the best way to get your final output.

 

Think about this option.

 

1 Design Layer for your model. Does it have to be on 1:1?

1 design layer for each of your "elevation" views.

 

Make your model however you want.  Switch to a Front view.

 

Switch to the "elevation" layer for Front. Click the button to set the working plane equal to the screen.  Draw whatever annotations you want on that plane. As long as you go back to the same view they will effectively act as "screen plane" similar objects.

 

Set a Saved View

 

Create a viewport on a sheet layer. Put your title block and any other 1:1 type items on the Sheet Layer. If you need or want to change the scale, just change the scale in the viewport. It will get bigger or smaller without effecting the paper size.

 

You can put multiple Viewports on a single sheet layer, even at different scales. So for me, composting your details onto a sheet layer this way is much easier.

 

And you never had think about using the Annotation Group. You will probably have to crop to get just the portion of the model you want to display.

 

And you can still use Saved Views to get to and from both the DL and SLs. (Not sure I follow this?)

 

 

 

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In my mind you will need some way to isolate the objects that should only be in one "view". I would use DLs, but you could also use classes.

 

Does it have to be 1:1 - NO!! That is a great thing about VW.  The Design Layer Scales are basically a preset Zoom to make the object fit better on to the paper/screen. You can draw at 1:1 but then you have to be zoomed way out to see the whole model. Set the scale to 1/4" it is effectively a preset zoom of 1:48. If you whole model fits on the screen at that scale you can use Command-4 (Fit to Page) to zoom out to get an overall view.  But when you draw a 4' long line, the menu bars and all of the dialog boxes still say 4'.  You don't have to think about it you just draw.

 

 

Saved Views are basically a script that will take you to the view and visibilities that were set when you save the view.  So you can have a saved view to take you to the Top/Plan view of the model, another to take you to the Front and then another to take you to a sheet layer showing viewport of all of your elevations at the same time. And you can recall the view to go to any other view at any time.

 

 

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So let's say in the model area that I want to show some soil under the shelter. Should that be a 2d Poly fill/hatch under the model in the model space or a true 3d extruded area for gravel/soil fill?(You cant use a hatch as a 3d fill)

 

I did toy around with the what you proposed and made some head way. How about things like grounding leads and conduits going into the cabinet? Do you draw those as 2d planar?  In my mind I guess You model it all. Our biggest struggle is when the client changes equipment and details ripple thru. I would also need to add extensive classing to be able to show the cabinet or shelter in areas without things like conduits and cabling.

 

I could see a workflow where we model only the clients equipment in design layer in a separate model file and reference that in to a design layer in the master file, then make sheet views with details as needed. Let me know if Im way off but I think thats the general idea.

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1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

Saved Views are basically a script that will take you to the view and visibilities that were set when you save the view.  So you can have a saved view to take you to the Top/Plan view of the model, another to take you to the Front and then another to take you to a sheet layer showing viewport of all of your elevations at the same time. And you can recall the view to go to any other view at any time.

Could I not just create one viewport and then duplicate it and just change the view of the VP in the object info? I suspect you can but maybe not the ideal workflow. Regardless while this may speed things Its going to add a lot more DLs, VPs, SLs and classes. Feels like the file overall would simply be heavier in a sense. I need a nice small project to work with to attempt.

 

Nobody seems to talk about DLVP's much these days which I have used effectively in a few ways as well. Is that considered legacy workflow? Often I crop something from one plan and move it to another saved view and simply play with the classes and layers. to get the outcome I desire.

1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said:

 

 

 

Edited by HEengineering
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Yes, but you will need to edit the layer and class visibilities as what I have suggested to you is putting dims and notes into the design layer(s). When you duplicate a viewport and switch from Front to Right you have to change the visibilities.  Just about as easy to go to your saved views and generate new viewports from there.

 

I don't know what you model look like, but I would NEVER consider what I have suggested to you for the models I make.

 

Influent Strainers 9-22-20.pdf

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6 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

Yes, but you will need to edit the layer and class visibilities as what I have suggested to you is putting dims and notes into the design layer(s). When you duplicate a viewport and switch from Front to Right you have to change the visibilities.  Just about as easy to go to your saved views and generate new viewports from there.

 

I don't know what you model look like, but I would NEVER consider what I have suggested to you for the models I make.

 

Influent Strainers 9-22-20.pdf 3.07 MB · 0 downloads

Thats a nice model. I have some similar that show the 5G poles that are deployed all over the US. I like the idea of putting the notes into the design layer and I see why you are suggesting each has its own saved view. That alone is a huge leap in understanding the best workflow. However; I find that if I have to reduce/increase the scale of the viewport all my annotations and dims are now scaled as well. That mean I must go back into the DL and ratio those items to scale or increase txt size or change scale bar. Is  there a better way to handle this? I guess this gets back into the annotations area existing for obvious reasons. 

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Select the Viewport in the OIP.  Scroll to the bottom. Click the Advanced Properties button. There are separate scale options for line weights and text.

 

Another good reason to use a DL scale similar to what you will be using for final output. Less changes necessary to VP settings.

 

image.png.80b212226f898e39edf88dedee01a3e7.png

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Pat you are filling it a lot of blanks here. Still seems like a huge leap for a team, but Im grateful for you unwavering support here! Like any big undertaking, I will continue to chip away when I can. Im kinda on my own with this one when the free time permits. I Hope you don't mind if I reach out again in the future. You are an invaluable asset to the forum!

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Now that Im revisiting this topic I remember some of the other obstacles that come with this workflow. I recall having some issues with border tools. So our border is literally a drawn border with not interactivity. Its all done on the DL. I can make this a viewport but then I have to make one for ea. sheet view. Maybe a ew topic on borders would make sense here.

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  • 2 months later...
5 hours ago, Elite Exhibits said:

Pat

 

Where does one now draw 2D Screen Plane geometry, (VW 2022) so that it remains aligned with the traditional screen view, even when the 3D view changes ?

 

Suggestions are appreciated.

 

Peter

In order to do this you need to go into the Document Preferences, Legacy 2D app and check the Enable legacy 2D features option. This will give you back Screen Plane.

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