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Text direction not a variable?


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The text tools in VW are definitely part of the problem.  They all seem very basic and without much function.

Also Dims will not force select, (which is a whole other problem that really needs to be fixed).

Whoever came up with the non-functional focus limits must be a very strange person.

Why does a double clic not change the focus.  I want everything in focus all the time.  If i want it locked i will lock it.

Edited by Locis
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Does VW have a text format language?

I want to place a paragraph break in a text or dimension override.

Normally i use the universal text codes ex. ('/p' for a paragraph)

This is fundamental stuff and i am amazed and very disappointed it is not part of the program.

 

Does anyone know how to use code to format text in VW?

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@LocisI think I am having a hard time understanding what you are looking for in terms of text rotation and setting focus.  What are you trying to do in regards to rotating the dimension text?  Dimension objects have a field in the Object Info Palette called Text Rot which give options such as "Horizontal", "Aligned", and "Horiz/Vert".  Moreover, the dimension text itself can be repositioned by clicking and dragging it around.

 

In terms of focus, what are your class and layer view options currently set at?  If you go to View - Class Options you will have several different options with Show/Snap/Modify set by default.  This allows for objects of any class type to be selected and snapped to.  Now look at View - Layer Options.  By default, this will be set to Gray/Snap, which means that only the currently active layer is shown in full detail (other layers will be semi-transparent with fills turned off and will not be selectable, but can still be used for snapping).  What it sounds like you are looking for is Show/Snap/Modify for your layer options, which will allow objects on any visible design layer to be selectable and modifiable without having to force select things all of the time.  I personally almost always have my layer options set to Snap/Modify, so that I don't accidentally move the floor symbol around when I'm trying to draw a marquee selection box around a lighting fixture and also ensures that I am placing things on the proper layer.

 

Based on this thread and the other that you started, it sounds like you are having a hard time adapting to Vectorworks from AutoCAD and Revit, which is very understandable.  If you have screenshots or drawings from other CAD programs showing what you want Vectorworks to look like, I can try to relay the best ways to get Vectorworks to work for you.  I certainly understand frustrations about VW and how some of things work, it's weirdly strict in some ways while being overly flexible in others, and its inconsistencies point toward a product developed by a team of people who don't always agree on how it should work.  And it's GUI has not changed in any meaningful way in the 13 years I have been using it, so it can feel really dated, with weird holdovers from earlier versions of the program being left in for legacy purposes (the Screen Plane, for example, which was functionally removed in VW2022 without overriding some settings).

 

But all that being said, I have come to love the way it handles some things, one of which is the split with Layers and Classes.  I love that I can have my visual attributes (pen color, fill color, lineweight) completely separate from my organization (wall lineweights can be quickly changed across the drawing regardless of being on the first floor or the third floor).  It certainly makes it much more difficult getting drawings from Vectorworks back into AutoCAD, though.  To answer a question from your other thread, the way I typically do it is to export each design layer as a separate .DWG drawing, then merge them together in AutoCAD as XREFs, which is less than ideal.  Unfortunately, on .DWG export you either have to choose to keep your class structure or your layer structure, so you either lose your visual settings or your organization if you try to get everything in one go.  Less than ideal, admittedly, but worth it to me for the other benefits.

 

For my industry (entertainment lighting), Vectorworks IS the industry standard, so a lot of my fondness may be Stockholm Syndrome from knowing that for all its quirks, it is certainly better than the alternatives.  I used AutoCAD with the LD Assistant plug-in for a number of years before migrating to Cast Software's WYSIWYG and finally landing on Vectorworks.  It took about a year of swearing at the program before things finally started to click.  I can say that it got easier when I stopped expecting it to work like AutoCAD and spent some time learning their intended workflows.  I really do miss AutoCAD's use of the spacebar to repeat the last action or tool as well as the command line entry, but have come to love VW's use of the number keys as shortcuts for the tools since my fingers are already there to type in dimensions anyway (even if it means having to memorize all of them, now it's pure muscle memory).

 

Please do feel free to reach out if you have questions about Vectorworks and how it works.  There are a lot of folks on this forum from a lot of different industries that can steer you in the right direction if we know what you're looking for.

 

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2 hours ago, Jesse Cogswell said:

@LocisI think I am having a hard time understanding what you are looking for in terms of text rotation and setting focus.  What are you trying to do in regards to rotating the dimension text?  Dimension objects have a field in the Object Info Palette called Text Rot which give options such as "Horizontal", "Aligned", and "Horiz/Vert".  Moreover, the dimension text itself can be repositioned by clicking and dragging it around.

 

In terms of focus, what are your class and layer view options currently set at?  If you go to View - Class Options you will have several different options with Show/Snap/Modify set by default.  This allows for objects of any class type to be selected and snapped to.  Now look at View - Layer Options.  By default, this will be set to Gray/Snap, which means that only the currently active layer is shown in full detail (other layers will be semi-transparent with fills turned off and will not be selectable, but can still be used for snapping).  What it sounds like you are looking for is Show/Snap/Modify for your layer options, which will allow objects on any visible design layer to be selectable and modifiable without having to force select things all of the time.  I personally almost always have my layer options set to Snap/Modify, so that I don't accidentally move the floor symbol around when I'm trying to draw a marquee selection box around a lighting fixture and also ensures that I am placing things on the proper layer.

 

Based on this thread and the other that you started, it sounds like you are having a hard time adapting to Vectorworks from AutoCAD and Revit, which is very understandable.  If you have screenshots or drawings from other CAD programs showing what you want Vectorworks to look like, I can try to relay the best ways to get Vectorworks to work for you.  I certainly understand frustrations about VW and how some of things work, it's weirdly strict in some ways while being overly flexible in others, and its inconsistencies point toward a product developed by a team of people who don't always agree on how it should work.  And it's GUI has not changed in any meaningful way in the 13 years I have been using it, so it can feel really dated, with weird holdovers from earlier versions of the program being left in for legacy purposes (the Screen Plane, for example, which was functionally removed in VW2022 without overriding some settings).

 

But all that being said, I have come to love the way it handles some things, one of which is the split with Layers and Classes.  I love that I can have my visual attributes (pen color, fill color, lineweight) completely separate from my organization (wall lineweights can be quickly changed across the drawing regardless of being on the first floor or the third floor).  It certainly makes it much more difficult getting drawings from Vectorworks back into AutoCAD, though.  To answer a question from your other thread, the way I typically do it is to export each design layer as a separate .DWG drawing, then merge them together in AutoCAD as XREFs, which is less than ideal.  Unfortunately, on .DWG export you either have to choose to keep your class structure or your layer structure, so you either lose your visual settings or your organization if you try to get everything in one go.  Less than ideal, admittedly, but worth it to me for the other benefits.

 

For my industry (entertainment lighting), Vectorworks IS the industry standard, so a lot of my fondness may be Stockholm Syndrome from knowing that for all its quirks, it is certainly better than the alternatives.  I used AutoCAD with the LD Assistant plug-in for a number of years before migrating to Cast Software's WYSIWYG and finally landing on Vectorworks.  It took about a year of swearing at the program before things finally started to click.  I can say that it got easier when I stopped expecting it to work like AutoCAD and spent some time learning their intended workflows.  I really do miss AutoCAD's use of the spacebar to repeat the last action or tool as well as the command line entry, but have come to love VW's use of the number keys as shortcuts for the tools since my fingers are already there to type in dimensions anyway (even if it means having to memorize all of them, now it's pure muscle memory).

 

Please do feel free to reach out if you have questions about Vectorworks and how it works.  There are a lot of folks on this forum from a lot of different industries that can steer you in the right direction if we know what you're looking for.

 

Thanks for the strong reply.   I don't use Revit. It is horrible and destroys creativity.

 

It does not let me snap to all others all the time.  There are (at least) several deep flaws in the program.  I constantly need to force select ever thing that is not on the active layer, i have even have situations where an object on the active layer needs to be forced.  Not being able to clear all commands and return to the standard cursor with 1 keystroke is something i will never be able to forgive.  The only way to clear some commands is to pick another tool!   The unified view does nothing except turn off all the other layers and when the layers are on they still don't snap how is that unified?

 

That part about 13 years definitely rings true.  The GUI is positively archaic.  Glad to hear they killed the useless screen plane.  My firm is still stuck on v2019 so i wouldn't know.  That export method is admirable but i would switch programs before i accepted that as a solution.

 

I have also been a stage lighting designer and a VJ so that side of VW would be very interesting to me, if I still did that work.  The group-mind diagnosis fits the symptoms very well.  It is an uncoordinated mess of a program. It is like they shut the doors and windows to the other developers, what the world needs and how the world designs things and just came up with random untested stuff (15 years ago and never thought about it again).

 

On another topic why are the live input fields so dysfunctional?  Half the time i enter a specific "move distance' or other distance parameter it just takes off and puts in in a completely different place.  Most of the parameter fields in the bar make no sense, some are just duplicates of other fields and others have no logic or use to them.

 

I have been doing this a long time and it is completely discouraging to see that it is still all up to me to make my own methods to make the program work.  No evolution, no refinement, no integration just strange methodologies to slowly, very slowly, pick apart until it make sense.  I could probably write my own program or go back to drawing on paper and it would take less time.

 

Thanks again, at least i get paid to suffer through it.

Lee

Edited by Locis
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On 11/9/2021 at 10:43 PM, Jesse Cogswell said:

There are several very valid criticisms to be lobbied toward Vectorworks, but so far in reading this post and your other one, most of your criticisms are based on fundamental misunderstandings of how the program works, not quirks or workarounds, full on misunderstandings.  It sounds to me like you have made up your mind that you dislike the program, and are using these questions to complain about it.  I will do my best to dispel some of your problems.

  • Having to force select everything: As I mentioned before, this sounds to me like you have either your class or layer view settings off.  If you make sure that View - Layer Settings and View - Class Settings are both set to Show/Snap/Modify literally everything visible will be selectable and snapable as long as it is the same layer scale.  I have NEVER ONCE encountered an issue where I was not able to select something with both classes and layers set to Show/Snap/Modify.  Give it a try before faulting the program.  There are several very legitimate reasons for the different options found in the menus, it is not the fault of the program that you don't have them set properly for what you are trying to do.
  • Snapping: Make sure you have the right snaps engaged.  You might not be snapping to points because VW doesn't know you want to snap to them.  This is what my Snapping palette looks like literally 100% of the time.  It's very rare that I can't get a snapping point that I need.  I also occasionally use the Tangent snap mode on the end, it will make you infuriated if you have it on when you don't need it.
  • image.png.c4564f14ba0b83d93e0da90d2b0e044f.png
  • Layer scales and why they exist:  I use layers of different scale fairly often.  I might have a lighting drawing that contains a block schematic view showing how the control system is laid out.  This will appear on a sheet layer (the name isn't super great, think of sheet layers as more akin to AutoCAD's Layouts and design layers as AutoCAD's Model space) in 1:1 and not scaled.  However, my plan view will likely be printed at 1/4" = 1'0" scale.  Things like text size, line weight, and dashed lines will have a different appearance going from 1:1 to 1/4".  Therefore it behooves me to have my schematic layer set to 1:1 while my actual model is in 1/4".  It gives me a good idea of how it's going to look on the page without having to worry about setting different dash styles and line weights by scale.
  • Unified View: Unified view is something of a holdover from earlier versions of Vectorworks before the existence of Sheet Layers and Viewports.  With Unified View off, you are able to manipulate the view of each Design Layer separately (you could have your Walls layer in a plan view while your Ceiling layer could be in a front elevation view).  This was useful for laying out a sheet, but will disengage snaps of layers with different views.  I have never found a use for this feature and literally only draft with it engaged.  I suspect there are some users who have found some use for it, but it has been deprecated and functionally removed from VW2022.
  • Getting back to the Select tool with a single keystroke:  This totally exists.  It's the "x" key.  It will stop any tool or action outside of a currently active text edit (in which case "esc" will close the text edit, then you can press "x" to close the tool and go back to select).  This isn't a new feature or workaround, it's been in Vectorworks since at least 2008 and probably much longer.
  • Screen plane: Screen plane did certainly have its uses, mostly with drawing and measuring 2D points in a 3D plane.  When you are drawing 2D shapes when in a 3D view, VW would sometimes latch on to points at different depths.  Let's say that when in a Left view that you wanted to draw a line straight up in the Z axis.  VW might snap to points at different depths on the X axis.  So from the left, it looks like you have a line straight up, but from the front you would see a diagonal line.  Drawing on the screen plan negates all of that, everything drawn and measured is considered to be on the same plane regardless of view.  The have cleaned up a lot of the coding and improved things with Working Planes, so the screen plane is no longer needed (for the most part).  One of my very favorite things about Vectorworks is that symbols have a separate 2D and 3D component.  It's what lets me make a moving light in full 3D detail while also making it an easy symbol to read on a printed plot.  One thing they didn't think about before removing the screen plane is that it was what VW used to sort objects between the 2D and 3D components.  But to be fair to Vectorworks, when I mentioned that on these forums one of the developers reached out to me and after sending a video showing what I meant, they started on making a solution.
  • Input bar: I don't know what problems you have with them, it makes perfect sense to me.  You have L for length, move an object a specific length regardless of angle (gives you a circle allowing you to select an angle but with the fixed length).  This is all I need 99% of the time.  You have A for angle, allowing you to lock the angle similar to ORTHO in AutoCAD.  You have ΔX and ΔY, which are the X and Y distances from the initial click, and X and Y, which are the absolute X and Y coordinates based on the drawings 0,0 origin point.  None of those are redundant and all have their uses.  I've never had a moment where I type in a specific L value and VW throws something way off place.  Like I said, I primarily only ever use the L option, which should activate by default anytime you click to start a tool or click and drag an object.  The only time I ever see the XY inputs is if I accidentally press tab too many times thinking that I'm still editing in the Object Info Palette.
  • Development: One of my other favorite things about VW is that it is freely open for people to create their own tools.  Sure, the default language of Vectorscript is based on a language that's older than me, but they incorporated Python back in 2014 and even have the SDK freely available.  There are several very useful tools you can find on this very forum that can drastically improve your VW experience if you look for them.  To say that VW " shut the doors and windows to the other developers" is very unfair when literally anyone can download the SDK and write tools for it.  They've even been very open about licensing other people's tools and directly incorporating them into VW.  A good chunk of the Spotlight toolset come directly from Joshua Benghiat and C. Andrew Dunning, who both post regularly on this forum, that VW has licensed from them.  One of the big inclusions to VW2022 is a door and window plugin called WinDoor from the Australian firm OzCAD.  I love that if Vectorworks doesn't have a tool that I need, I can (and very much have) write one to do exactly what I want and that thinks the way I do.
  • VW 2019:  Your criticism about VW not supporting older versions of software is entirely legitimate but more of a byproduct of the general shift toward "Software as a Service" and not specific to Vectorworks.  They still do offer support to older versions, but once a new one comes out, most of their resources get put toward the new version.  This makes sense to me and isn't anything that I would say is uncommon within the software industry.  It's nothing I haven't seen from AutoDesk once they transitioned to yearly releases back in 2004.  As a general rule, you can backsave up to five version years and they do offer their Service Select plan, which allows you to stay current for a "smallish" fee (still steep but better than it used to be to pay the upgrade fee every year) and comes with exclusive symbol libraries and other perks.  Ironically, VW2019 is my favorite version and what I daily drive despite having every release from 2015 onward (when I started my Service Select plan).  Unfortunately, the newest releases usually have some major bugs to work out, so amongst most the users that I know, you usually wait until the next version comes out before adopting the previous (wait to adopt 2020 until 2021 comes out, wait to adopt 2022 until 2021 comes out, etc).  So far, I have only ever used VW2020 to backsave to 2019.  2021 added some very convenient scripting commands for setting lighting photometry data quickly, so I use it for realistic rendering, and 2022 added several new rendering modes that are at once exciting and very disappointing (they...need some work before I can really use them).
  • Developing your own software, with blackjack and hookers: There has literally never been a better time to do exactly that.  With open source and mostly free tools like Blender, Unity, and Unreal, you could probably legitimately do exactly that, if someone hasn't started it already.  I read a case study where an architecture firm had designed a building in Blender and decided that it would be less time to write their own BIM module than convert everything to Revit, so they did.  If you have any coding background, this might legitimately be an option for you to put your money where your mouth is.

I guess my point with all of this is: If you ask a question on these forums, please do consider the answers before pooping all over Vectorworks.  It can be archaic, some features are very much half baked, but coming here and yelling about Vectorworks being useless and broken when it's clear that you haven't taken the time to learn it or digested the information others have tried to share on this forum is going to garner very little sympathy.  I never use 3d, the program is so difficult in 2d I will not even go there.  Despite that i constantly need to change the object from 3d to plane or screen to plane. I draw everything in the model plane and I still have things floating around in the 3d space.  There are objects that appear in different places depending if i am looking at them in the reference file or the sheet file.

 

 

On 11/9/2021 at 10:43 PM, Jesse Cogswell said:

 

Take some time with Vectorworks University and doing tutorials.  Especially if someone is going to pay you hourly to do it.  Let me know if you have any questions.  If there's something you wish Vectorworks would do, also feel free post in the Marionette / Vectorscript / Python Scripting sections of this forum.  There are several folks here who may help you create a tool or command if one doesn't exist.

Thanks again but unfortunately most of what you say does not work on my machine.  That is why it is annoying.  The solutions i hear do not work.  I have all my settings in the configurations you give and i do not get the results you have. 

 

It is really hard to get excited about a program with so many oddities.  Ex. I need to open any file at least twice before i can see the objects.  Inevitably the first time i open a file i see nothing.  If i close it and then reopen it sometimes i see it most of the time i need a 3d opening to finally see the file  and this is a brand new iMac.  That is indicative of most of the ways the program fails.  Just odd behavior with no cause or good solution.  It was the hope of all those advanced function that encouraged me to try the program.  Now I am crushed by the reality of it and doubt i will ever get to a see any of that good stuff.

 

Also why does it randomly (sometimes) put a temporary string at the end of my files when i go to print to .pdf.

and why is there no direct to .pdf function?

 

I noticed with the data bar that if i do not tab into the bar is when it goes crazy.  Why do i need to activate the bar when i am using a tool with only one parameter?  Which brings up another question why is there no simple single function move tool?  Why do i need to click into the field parameter for say offset, to enter a distance that works?  I am snapped to a vector to move or lengthen something and instead of taking my direction it chooses something else.  Now i understand that it is defaulting to an x or y which i will never use.  I use the snapping vector not a coordinate.  The default should be the vector i have put it on.

 

I thought Unified made everything active?  If it is for 3d i have no need of it.  Can it be locked on or off?

 

Why do you like the height parameter of a layer?  What does that even do? That makes no sense to me.  Just something else i would want to turn off.

 

I will avoid the marionette stuff entirely.  If it will not even give me basic functions there is no way i am going to start trying to script things.

 

How would you set up a 30 sheet construction set?

I have seen nothing that makes me think this program can handle that.  Even my small 10 sheet files are slow and this is a brand new iMac.

Putting internally referenced layouts in the design space might work but could end up being confusing to collaborators seeing the same objects in two places and those files would be huge.  Referencing the design into sheet files is slow and cumbersome to need to manage so many files.  If all the sheets (referenced viewports) are in one file at least then i can create a publish routine to generate prints.

How do you manage collaboration between designers.  Only one person can work on a reference file at a time, right?

 

Is there not a way to force all of it into a 2d plane and disallow any 3d actions, kill the 3d plane, deny all screen plane objects.  At least then i could learn one dimension at a time.

 

Is there not a way to use the key pad for numbers.  Just another bother to need to click into a field to enter the obvious and only parameter.  Instead i try to enter a distance and it takes me to a 3d view i have no need for.  Some tools do that others don't.  At least be consistent.  We tried a project in 3d and again the learning curve was way too steep be considered.  For now if i need 3d i will use SketchUp.

 

And how about an automatic update for referenced files?  Super wasteful to need to refresh the print view every time i make a change.

 

Sorry you can feel my frustration but that how it feels to me.

 

You are very kind and clearly very skilled.  Would you come to Santa Fe for a week or two and teach my firm what you know?

Edited by Locis
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2 hours ago, Locis said:

Is there not a way to force all of it into a 2d plane and disallow any 3d actions, kill the 3d plane, deny all screen plane objects.  At least then i could learn one dimension at a time.

 

This is how I worked with VW from 1995-2019, so yes, this can be done.  I said this in another thread that I think you're on.  You can go into the workspace editor and create a custom workspace with only the tools & commands you need.  Then turn off all the things you don't want in the data bar (little triangles in the top right corner).  

 

Each drawing sheet was a separate file.  I used layers (all set to the drawing scale, except for a 1:1 title block layer) to organize & hide things, and ignored classes completely (set to show/snap/modify).  It was just like drawing on layers of Mylar.  We didn't deal with any of the publishing functions, just hit print (or print to PDF) and the sheet was done.

 

For 3D, we used Sketchup.  Work got done, buildings were built...  

 

You're getting tons of support time from the forum, but instead of trying to understand the program, explain what your company's workflow is, and how you can understand & improve it, you're mostly complaining.  If you really want to understand and work with the program, then ask.  I'm sure I'm not the only one with a viable 2D workflow.

 

Some of the issues you're mentioning sound like bugs, but with all the other complaints, it will be hard for you to find someone to help you troubleshoot those issues.

 

 

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3 hours ago, E|FA said:

 

This is how I worked with VW from 1995-2019, so yes, this can be done.  I said this in another thread that I think you're on.  You can go into the workspace editor and create a custom workspace with only the tools & commands you need.  Then turn off all the things you don't want in the data bar (little triangles in the top right corner).  

 

Each drawing sheet was a separate file.  I used layers (all set to the drawing scale, except for a 1:1 title block layer) to organize & hide things, and ignored classes completely (set to show/snap/modify).  It was just like drawing on layers of Mylar.  We didn't deal with any of the publishing functions, just hit print (or print to PDF) and the sheet was done.

 

For 3D, we used Sketchup.  Work got done, buildings were built...  

 

You're getting tons of support time from the forum, but instead of trying to understand the program, explain what your company's workflow is, and how you can understand & improve it, you're mostly complaining.  If you really want to understand and work with the program, then ask.  I'm sure I'm not the only one with a viable 2D workflow.

 

Some of the issues you're mentioning sound like bugs, but with all the other complaints, it will be hard for you to find someone to help you troubleshoot those issues.

 

 

Ok thanks i will try that.

Sorry i am not able to take in and test all the advice.

 

Yes it is complaining, yes it is frustration.

 

Just tired of the software companies thinking they are beyond reproach and placing all the effort on the users.

It could be better if the only advice in this forum came from the company.

Then there could be a true users only group for nuance and applications of the methods after the fundamentals are taught in a consistent way.

Same frustration with SketchUp.  They think the users are better at solving the problems than the authors.

 

lee

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